WHQ/DnD home made floor plans / dungeon tiles

[Billiam Babble]

"I've gotta say it's nearly as big a tease as the girl who keeps talking to me about chainmail bikinis on MSN. "

... Hey, Mortis, it's a clearly a trap!  

That's possibly the finest compliment a man can have in a gaming circle, that and comparing my work to gem dice perhaps.  I'm teasing myself here.  You work on all the little elements and forget the fun constructing a whole dungeon.

Hex grid?!!  Nooooo!  Rusty Axe dude was talking about hex grids, I'm just in denial about the very existence of such things.

It's interesting what you were saying about diagonal corridors in D&D modules:

"This leads me to theorise that there are 2 types of dungeons map you will find in D&D modules; the first kind uses the merely as a means of measurement for the DM so you can easily look down at the map behind the DM screen and say “the chamber is 20 by 30 foot” this kind of map is not intended to be used with miniatures. While the second type is intended to be used with a battle grid and miniatures and has been thought out with regards at where monsters will stand and how much room the party will have to fight in. The latter type is seen more often since the advent of 3rd edition and this would explain why diagonal corridors and round rooms are rarer these days."  

Exactly!  Also I think the new Wizards' software is pretty texture-drag square-grid based, which can lend itself to blocky maps not seen since Rogue/Nethack. ;)

I rather like the solid-fatness of the pieces in WHQ, and it's definitely something I'm trying to emulate here.

"Another way of getting rid of the partial squares is to fill them with junk and rubble (some of the WHQ tiles do this) but this only really works if the dungeon in question is in a poor state of repair. "

I'm totally with you on this.  Statues and rubble, or just festering dirt, bones and slime should fill half squares in rooms, and smaller sections, but when you have a row of them in diagonal corridor, it gets a little more difficult I guess to contrive.  D&D 3-4 and DnD Miniatures seem very attentive to squares filled with "cover" and impassible terrain - marking it with little triangles (I think).  I think the converter pieces are an interesting work around, especially for players who prefer a "boardgame"-style experience.   Your point about rotatable area templates would solve any arguments.  This reminds me (probably mentioned it above somewhere) but dungeon sets need counters to represent spell effects, fire walls, fog - temporary phenomena.  I get sucked into the maps and keep forgetting about the practicality of play with figures, where line of sight is pretty much worked out in an instant.  

"The spider webs would look better as plain black lines rather than white lines with a black boarder."

 Good point.  I think the person using the editor would be better with a choice of black and white.  I agree with you, and don't like to deviate much from the black-line style, but on some of the more detailed backgrounds the black webs seem to look messy - perhaps I should include grey webs as well?  Designing pieces for the editor can be a challenge at times because the original maps may be being drawn at a phenomenally small scale and then zoomed in - and you want the graphics to work acceptable and illustrative at every level of resolution.  I'm pretty sure I'll keep coming back to the webs (Rusty Axe want an arachnid based adventure sample map).  Interestingly enough, I've been seriously unimpressed with the more "realistic" wispy webs on commercial tile plans, which I find reassuring - clearly others struggle with representing webs.

"The doors on the sample map work quite well but need something to indicate their thickness when placed across an opening."
 
Yup.  Thems look like paper doors.  Since we had so much trouble with the walls (and the fact that you partly solved the cardboard plans by suggesting stand-up doors) door work went to the bottom of the pile - the those doors are just temporary  - I hope to provide a variety of fitted-to-wall doors, and "exposed"-from above door pieces.  Thickness and 3D-ness, and slottability with those Lego walls are all factors clawing and reshaping my scan-art.

A dungeon without doors?!

Ooh, I like that smiley.


(cheers, again)

[Billiam Babble]

maurishio wrote

i love your work

Thanks, dude.  

[SamuelF]

Some flippin' brill ideas going on in this thread guys. Over 4000 views! (although to be fair I think a fair whack of them must be yours truly )

Billiam Babble wrote

One must obey the laws of THE GRID.

Heheh, I liked those new 45 degree corners. The single passage ones got me thinking.. Have you considered a curved corridor section? It would remove the problem of one tile getting squashed and spread the load across them all. As long as the connecting squares were in sync with the tile dimensions it should work?

Billiam Babble wrote

Has anyone here played Dungeon Bush or Descent?  Any good?

I'd also like to know whether descent is any good. I've heard that it has a very technical combat system that is a lot of fun but makes role-playing quite difficult. I find Fantasy flight artwork a bit over-saturated personally (a bit like the modern D&D books), and their games are prone to feeling incomplete without expansions.. However the minis/board sections look okay and I, like Mortis, am sorely tempted to buy that beast.

Great work! Good luck with any new tiles

[SamuelF]

SamuelF wrote

As long as the connecting squares were in sync with the tile dimensions it should work?

Okay, as said previously, I really like the 45 degree connectors.. However.. I've been reading up on maths and found to my horror that the diagonal of a square is an irrational number!

The unfortunate upshot of which is that I have now surpased all previous levels of geek, but more seriously means that those beautiful 45 degree hallways will never quite work as connectors for diagonal sections

Not being happy with this state of play, I went and did some measurements to see if there was a "make-do" situation and came up with this:



From this you can just about see that the best fit is the corridor that is 7 squares long. Other near misses are 3, 4, 10, 12 and 18.

So there definately are some options for the 45 degree connectors after all. The key is that it's better to make them slightly too small than too big when you are cutting them out!

Okay, I think I'm done for now. Time to do something sensible!

[Billiam Babble]

Woah!  There's some serious maths and geometry going on here.  Very useful for map planning.  The practical applications can be a bit mind boggling.  

I think curved corners for 45 degree connector pieces is a great idea - thanks.

____

A return to fountains:

Mortis requested a 2x2 (10ftx10ft) fountain a while ago.  Here's one for the collection:



The water is magically filter to remain clear and blue-ish.

Corner fountains or basins - plus abandoned drinking chalice.



Both graphics are 100dpi - will hopefully print correctly to fit a one inch grid.

___

Soonish...
I'm thinking about publishing a cheap beta of some of these dungeon pieces to Lulu.com and RPG Now (http://www.rpgnow.com/) , but am having trouble finding out what percentage the different companies take for ebooks - because it would be improper to charge different amounts on different sites.
The first will be a reworking of basic dungeon pieces and doors with props and fixtures, hopefully no more expensive than $1.99 USDs, perhaps with a couple of freebie sample pages to download.

(Oi, Mortis! Did you get my email regarding this?)

[Billiam Babble]

Easter treat for you all
(I've been having trouble viewing the forum today - anyone else having difficulty?)



And yes, I know I'm breaking a few rules with regards to perspective - think of it as a tribute to Escher's impossible stairs.

[SamuelF]

I love those new fountains! I also like the magically filtered blue water  It seems more representational than trying to get too realistic, which I like (better for the imagination).  

The prospect of online publishing sounds interesting. Would it be he same material as posted here already?  
I'm sure that plenty of people would support you ($1.99 seems a pretty fair price tbh)

Billiam Babble wrote

I think curved corners for 45 degree connector pieces is a great idea - thanks.

Okay, I had some free evening time during my holiday and got a bit carried away.
I thought I'd have a bash at sketching out what those 45 degree connectors would look like if they were curved and before I knew it whole rooms were springing up!

CurvedTiles04.jpg

I don't know if tiles like these would be useful at all. They throw up some interesting problems to do with speed of crossing rooms and getting round the outsides of corners, but they also look quite fun to play on I think! Some of the rooms look like they could be nice candidates for town squares or fountains etc.. The curved corridors could make windy back streets or sections of cave tunnel perhaps? I hope the laws of THE GRID aren't too offended!

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Well done! that man!

This is exactly the sort of over-thinking we like to see around here!

Having had a chance to play around with prints of the diagonal tiles I have confirmed your findings, more on this later

[Billiam Babble]

Apologies for my delaying in posting.  I'm typing this on a phone because everytime I get a chance to sit at a computer, all sorts of other priorities kick in atm.


I love the curved x-junction and curved corner room! - Which reminds me of Ayleid Ruins from Oblivion for some reason (my partner has started playing Oblivion, so its all quests, shopping and gates atm). They would also adapt well to the sci fi plans space hulk style game we were chatting about (edit in thread link later).  Something alien and yet regular about them. Nice work, curious maths.

 
I rediscovered compasses the other day - those things with the stabby bits which spods used to draw circles with.  I've been trying to perfect spiral stairs and circular corners - will post pics at some point.


About two weeks ago I was ready to take over the world and launch the dungeon packs, but personal and work life has decided otherwise.  In the meantime I've bought some cheap webspace - for this and other projects with the domain name inkedadventures.com . This is an anchor point and news feed to provide extra info relating to the product published through 2nd party sites ( RPGNow and Lulu for example)
I was planning the first basic dungeon pack 16 to 20 pages to be about $2 (USD) for the file, but active members of Lost and the Damned (regular posters) can have a free "review" copy. ;)  There will be some new stuff and variations on some of the pieces in this thread, but it'll be better organised, hopefully.  In the meantime, because I've fallen behind on this and tile graphics for the Rusty Axe dungeon editor, I'll be posting a free sampler pack - the limitations being mainly that the corridors are only 5ft wide with small rooms, one type of door etc.
I've been chatting with Mortis about the possibility of manipulated pieces or showcase art as seperate downloadable packs, as well dungeon themes and settings.  I was thinking about portioning out profit for any combined work but then read the small print about both publishing sites not paying out until reach a certain value in sales, like a 100 USD, so it may take a long while For those 50c-$1 to build up -so it's difficult to guarrentee any money. Also I'm a complete megalomaniac and control freak, mwhahaha, I want to get the first pack out before going down any open source or co-op routes. Everything is still very experimental - the selling is more about some sort of recognition in a real marketplace rather than any profit at this stage.   Go retro style modular dungeon sections!

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Argh! I've been busy and I seem to have neglected this thread for the last week or so!
Ok lets see if I can catch up with things I should have been posting replies to

Billiam Babble wrote

About two weeks ago I was ready to take over the world and launch the dungeon packs, but personal and work life has decided otherwise.  In the meantime I've bought some cheap webspace - for this and other projects with the domain name inkedadventures.com . This is an anchor point and news feed to provide extra info relating to the product published through 2nd party sites ( RPGNow and Lulu for example)

Great news about http://inkedadventures.com/main/ being up, we'll sort out a links exchange with tLatD when you're ready  

Billiam Babble wrote

A return to fountains:

Mortis requested a 2x2 (10ftx10ft) fountain a while ago.

The new fountains are great, exactly what I was thinking of. Like the Dragon Statue, the 2x2 fountain makes a great centre piece for an objective room. 2x2 is a nice size for such objects as it is large enough to dominate any room, but still leaves enough room to move around it even in a room as small as 4x4. More 2x2 objects for the commercial packs?

Billiam Babble wrote

The water is magically filter to remain clear and blue-ish

Ah the fabled 'Springs of Britta'! [begins writing ridiculous adventure based around the concept]

Talking of adventures, browsing around the other night I came across this: http://www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=40522&view=previous
thought you'd be interested, not only for the nostalgia of it all (I want one, I want one!) but because it's pretty much the product we discussed your dungeon tiles evolving into (apart from it being a fixed layout).

SamuelF wrote

Okay, I had some free evening time during my holiday and got a bit carried away.
I thought I'd have a bash at sketching out what those 45 degree connectors would look like if they were curved and before I knew it whole rooms were springing up!

CurvedTiles04.jpg

I don't know if tiles like these would be useful at all. They throw up some interesting problems to do with speed of crossing rooms and getting round the outsides of corners, but they also look quite fun to play on I think! Some of the rooms look like they could be nice candidates for town squares or fountains etc.. The curved corridors could make windy back streets or sections of cave tunnel perhaps? I hope the laws of THE GRID aren't too offended!

Excellent stuff there Sam! Hopefully Mr Babble will be able to surround these with perspective walls and turn them into some interesting shaped dungeon sections.
I don't think the grid issue is one we here (or anyone else elsewhere) are going to solve easily. In regular (most likely Dwarf-built) dungeons the grid works perfectly fine - unless someone wants to move diagonally, which can be dealt with immediately by not allowing diagonal movement, meaning a figure needing to make such a manoeuvre needs to move forward and then across, but as some one pointed out the other day this is some-what unrealistic as to move what would be around 7 feet takes 10 (They must be knackered!). A certain amount of realism is always sacrificed to make a game run smoothly and IMHO this is fine as I believe fast playing rule systems make for more enjoyable games. My own attempt to solve this problem was to abandon the D&D style 1” grid all together in favour of the 1” on a tape-measure and base-contact system used in table-top skirmish games like Mordheim and Necromunda. However I never entirely succeeded in introducing this to our dungeon games partly because it gets kinda fiddly in narrow corridors and partly because of the still grid-based nature of the dungeon setup (my group has settled on a compromise of grid based movement and tape-measures for used weapon ranges ect)    

Irregular 'squares' would work very nicely for caves I think as the difference in square-size could be said to represent the unevenness of a typical cave floor and the movement anomalies caused by them would represent the difficulty of movement over such terrain. In the past I've considered using a Hex-grid (for give me for I have sinned) to represent caves.

Back on the subject of curved sections and 'irregular squares' I've photographed some parts of the DragonStrike Board that might be of interest





As you can see DragonStrike uses 'squares' of all shapes and sizes. The 'squares' on the DragonStrike boards (perhaps 'spaces' might be a better term in this case) don't necessary represent a 5foot by 5foot area. In fact the scale and perspective on the DragonStike boards is all over the place and some what abstract. I see the DragonStrike boards as being purely representational and not intended to be realistic; the dungeon map equivalent of those medieval maps with the buildings, ships and people all drawn in - hell the DragonStrike boards even have illustrations of lizards and the like around the edges! 'ere be (wandering) monsters!

[SamuelF]

Billiam Babble wrote

I love the curved x-junction and curved corner room! - Which reminds me of Ayleid Ruins from Oblivion for some reason (my partner has started playing Oblivion, so its all quests, shopping and gates atm). They would also adapt well to the sci fi plans space hulk style game we were chatting about (edit in thread link later).  Something alien and yet regular about them. Nice work, curious maths.

Glad you like them!  The corner room you mention was actually meant to be a section that you could slot into some of the other pieces to make curved rooms etc.. It's always interesting to hear another perspective. I think there is potential for a few different interesting combinations by playing about with joins and overlays.

Looking forward to seeing how http://inkedadventures.com/main/ plays out

Nice work posting the Dragonstrike images there Mort. Strangely I'd seen the board whilst following a suggestion of yours in the HQ event deck thread and passed over it in a hurry. But it's great! Is this your copy? It drags The Grid around the back of the bike sheds and teaches it a stern life lesson.

MortiS-the-Lost wrote

Irregular 'squares' would work very nicely for caves I think as the difference in square-size could be said to represent the unevenness of a typical cave floor and the movement anomalies caused by them would represent the difficulty of movement over such terrain. In the past I've considered using a Hex-grid (for give me for I have sinned) to represent caves.

As long as the connecting sections are grid-aligned it shouldn't be a problem. In fact I really rather like the idea of a modular, irregular dungeon. Has that even been done before?!

[Billiam Babble]

Another very quick post - I'm experiencing more space-time anamolies than Voyager in Season 3...

Mortis, nice find with that Dragonsfoot thread regading the Dungeon Planner Set Caverns of the Dead.
(I love Dragonsfoot and Knights N Knaves Alehouse - where you can find ten year old threads arguing about 20 year old rulesets ;) )  I really wanted that set but it was always too pricey, and I think in the end I felt a pre-made floorplan would be restrictive to my own creativity or some such nonsense. *grin*  It definitely uses GW's Dungeon Floor Plan graphics.  
I have a rather random assorted of uncut card sheets from a few sets (those and Dungeon Lairs I think) which I'm tempted to scan in to make availible here.  From what I can tell the only companies still selling the sets are selling antique originals and not PDFs, so we might just get away with posting some scans.  

That Dragonstrike map is a real education.  The 3D details are most inspiring and those "squares" - my god, no respect for The Grid!   Burn the graph paper!  It's a very economic use of space, very colourful too.  Walls are a bit thin, don't you think?

Sam, I meant to post some rough examples some circular rooms I'd been working on earlier, but they haven't reached the scanner yet.  Ye gods, my files are all over the place.  

Okay.  These were forwarded to Rusty Axe in a recent email for the secret dungeon editor project, but they should also  print out okay for cardboard sections.  The bridge ends will need some flagstone backgrounds - more modifications, unending modifications!
 
Rope Bridge:



It's in three parts - so that the middle can be repeated to meet any length desired.

Here's a row of checker tiles, just for fun. *grin*



Regards (must keep digging and carving the living rock...)

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Billiam Babble wrote

Another very quick post - I'm experiencing more space-time anamolies than Voyager in Season 3...

when Jeri Ryan turns up send her my way

Billiam Babble wrote

I have a rather random assorted of uncut card sheets from a few sets (those and Dungeon Lairs I think) which I'm tempted to scan in to make availible here.  From what I can tell the only companies still selling the sets are selling antique originals and not PDFs, so we might just get away with posting some scans.  

yes I think so long as we make it clear they are “for reference purposes only”and post them in a separate thread so people don't confuse them with your works

Talking of your work: The Rope bridge looks great! Is there going to be a river or chasm for it to go over?

Billiam Babble wrote

That Dragonstrike map is a real education.  The 3D details are most inspiring and those "squares" - my god, no respect for The Grid!   Burn the graph paper!  It's a very economic use of space, very colourful too.  Walls are a bit thin, don't you think?

Yea the Dragon Strike boards aren't the best example of Dungeon Design, but I thought they might give you some ideas about how to distribute non-square 'squares' evenly, I think Sam might be onto something with the following though

SamuelF wrote

 I really rather like the idea of a modular, irregular dungeon. Has that even been done before?!

Not that I can think of off the top my head, but the nearest that springs to mind is the Descent dungeon tiles and modular board sections from Advance Space Crusade, both of which look irregular but are in fact grid based. I'd love see what you come up with

[Billiam Babble]

Oh, Seven, so sharp and yet so curvy ...

Okay, a very quick post before I collapse from sleep deprivation, but I just wanted to announce that I've finally completed my initial free sample pack for the floor plans!


On Lulu Publishing

http://bit.ly/IAdungeonsample

Deviant Art
http://fav.me/d2q6ljo

Inked Adventures / feed:
http://inkedadventures.com/main/?p=16

5ft wide sections - a sort of taster for things to come. Check at the props/objects "Dungeon Dressing" page.

Devour and Enjoy!

*head hits keyboard*

Zz Zz Zz ...

(PS. Mortis I'm looking forward to reading the DragonStrike review, later :) )

[Rhinotaur]

Alright. Joined the forum in order to follow this thread. Solid work and discussion going on here.

Keep up the great art.

[SamuelF]

Very nicely presented!

I thought that you'd been quiet for a while, and now I see why! It is a very good quality release. I like the dungeon entrance a lot, and all the bits and bobs to dress the dungeon are fantastic.

Got any plans for the next instalment? or is that a cheeky question? You just get some sleep!

[little kat]

OMG it looks fun and fantastic and hope sells big time for ya, congats and it gose well  

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Ah! more wandering monsters! Welcome aboard Rhinotaur, why not let us know a little about yourself on the Introductions Page

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Awesome work as always dude! but I think this time you have surpassed yourself
Very professional presentation, the new style parchment backgrounds with a grid are a great touch and I really like those merry-eval style corner-fillers things you've thrown in.

As for the floor plans themselves, excellent! The added shading really brings the artwork to life and I see you've finally (after so much re-working) <u>perfected</u> those 'top-down' doors (I'm still very much in the stand-up-doors boot-camp though). The Ruins style dungeon entrance is awesome and has inspired me to write a short adventure based on some of the stuff from the pack.
The Dungeon Dressings sheet also great, I particularly like the round Floor-Grill, the flip-over Pit Traps and Trap Door and the Book (although I can't help but feel those beds and the tomb should be a bit larger)  

if the commercial packs are all of this quality you'll have no problem getting people to fork-over the cyber-cash for a download!  

Billiam Babble wrote

Oh, Seven, so sharp and yet so curvy ...

Like a scimitar ... with breasts ... and nice legs lol
(I'm lonely)

Billiam Babble wrote

(PS. Mortis I'm looking forward to reading the DragonStrike review, later :) )

thanks dude, I'll try and get around to writing some replies to everyone who commented on DragonStrike later

[Fenryz]

*Waves from the shadows*
I managed to get some sneaky printing done at my job, since my own printer isnt really up for the job.
The prints look awesome :)

Btw, hope you didnt mind, but I kinda tried to spread the word around on your work BB, I wanted more people to get a chance to enjoy your art :)

Oh, a question : dont get stressed out, but are there any plans on some sort of wilderness "addon" ?