New boxed set.

[Thousand and One Sons]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Thousand and One Sons]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Thousand and One Sons]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Thousand and One Sons wrote

From looking through the literature that goes with it, the quick play guide and reference charts and missions, what i can say is that the version in Spanish contains inconsistencies and typos in the stats. The chaos lord is described somewhere as having a 5+ unmodified save and elsewhere as a 4+, etc. These mistakes may not be in the English version, but nonetheless one expects a 6th edition to be more polished.

I've heard that GW translations are notoriously bad in some languages to the point where people in some countries will seek out an English language version just to make the game playable. Some countries apparently get very good translations through, so I guess it depends on who is doing the  translation. I'd be interested to know how good the Italian translations are before and after Alessio Cavatore moved onto working for Mantic and others.

Thousand and One Sons wrote

one expects a 6th edition to be more polished

The phrase “polished turd” springs to mind when I read that

Thousand and One Sons wrote

The mistakes should be ironed out, the army lists should be already done and [play-tested] and more balanced (a concept which GW have never totally embraced as far as i could tell - the idea that certain units are exceptional value for points seems to get used as a selling point rather than evidence that the game is unbalanced).  

Ah yes GW and their fans talk about points value like it's a currency - it's really sad, all to often I hear things like “I don't mind paying £20 for it because it's a 200 point model” (and they're talking about a human sized figure on foot) or “That's a great model to have in your army because it's only 35 points”. Recently I even saw an advert for a Necron army which listed the points value of the models rather than the prices! The points value of a model seems to take president over quality of sculpt for a lot of GW fans. I don't know, maybe in future GW stores will have some kind of exchange rate between money and game points, and their customers will pay for things in points with a special card. Until then justifying a high price a for high points value model or a model having a low points value for how powerful it is in the rules being a selling point is pathetic behaviour. These people need to get their priorities strait and GW as company is exploiting this no-end.

Thousand and One Sons wrote

The loyalist space marines are ok if you suspend disbelief. Not too hard to do with the basic marines, but of course when a terminator with shoulder joints 6 foot apart and a head located somewhere in the middle of its chest is supposed to be piloted by a human, it requires some blind faith.

If you think the normal terminators are bad you should check out the new plastic Grey Knights

Thousand and One Sons wrote

As far as i know, there have never been any chaos cultist miniatures before, so i was hoping that these ones would be good. And they are OK.

Some much nicer Chaos Cultist were produced in the late 90's -

I've found it rather hard to find a picture of them online because of all the pictures of the new plastic ones and idiots trying to sell Necromunda Redemptionist miniatures as Chaos Cultist . (On a related point I'm sick of hearing how people have bought the new 40k to use the the Cultists in Necromunda)

Thousand and One Sons wrote

it would be nice if citadel sculptors made a close study of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvian_Man. I was comparing the cultists to some authentic 28mm miniatures i got from hasslefree. In terms of the height they are almost the same, but in terms of width across the shoulders and size of hands and fist they are absurdly different. The close combat cultists have clutched in their enormous chunky fists autopistols which are more or less the size of a submachine gun in a realistic scale.

GW have really lost their touch when it comes to sculpting anatomy (not to mention texture) - and the culprit to blame is the the computer modelling and 3D printing process they use to make the masters for most of their miniatures these days - that and sheer laziness. There's always been inconsistencies of scale and proportion amongst GW's ranges but it's worse than even these days - again I blame the detachment of a computer generated model from the real thing.

Thousand and One Sons wrote

I fell in love with the original Rogue trader game and spent many (too many for sure) hours poring over it as a kid. They came up with a nice universe with loads of background (not entirely original, bits and pieces were lifted from films and books, but that is inevitable) and lots of character and charm. The gameplay was a bit awkward and didnt really work as a fixed points battle game without a GM. Then a series of ad hoc modifications were made to try and fix this. Then at a certain point it was decided to make the game more cinematic and forget the roleplay origin of the game (I remember a GW staff member telling me this some years ago). They seem to be making a sucess of that at least in terms of marketing if not in substance.

Totally agreed - this is what ruined 40k for me and many others

Thousand and One Sons wrote

I see that here in Portugal  FNAC are now stocking their products (specialist gaming stores have stopped stocking GW stuff for obvious reasons) and they appear on the shelves alongside Magic the Gathering cards and such stuff. I dont know whether they will sell much stuff, especially in the present economic situation and with the high prices they are asking. But the fact that they convinced the FNAC people to stock it says something. I dot think they have FNAC in the UK but in most of Europe they are a major chain where people go to buy music, books, computer stuff and films etc.

No we don't have FNAC in the UK, but I know the kind of store you mean, although I don't think we really have an equivalent here any more since Woolworths died in the recession.
The main thing to remember is that GW are trying to maintain a false monopoly over the miniatures industry - their approach to this is many-fold, but it all loops back to controlling prices and a the general ignorance of other brands amongst their core customer base. Basically GW don't like independent gaming stores because, not only do they offer GW products at a discount, but also because they sped awareness of other brands (most of which produce superior miniatures for much lower prices these days). To combat this GW make things hard for independent gaming stores by making them jump through all kinds of hoops and even have different levels of whole-sale prices for different stores. (See also the 'Australian Embargo') Selling through a large retail chain is of course preferable for GW because 1: other brands don't sell through large retail chains, 2: it spreads awareness of GW to a wider audience and 3: the large retailers will only offer discounts on products for short periods during a sale and not constantly like an independent gaming store. 4: Large retailers, will not keep a wide stock of GW products which will force people onto GW stores when they want more -  In the end GW wants you to buy their products directly from them because that's where they make the most profit, don't have to compete with other companies and never offer any real discounts.

This is compounded further by GW's practice of raising prices to increase profit-margins to make up for falling sales - which in turn of course leads to further loss of sales, their response to which is to raise prices again - which in turn of course leads to further loss of sales, their response to which is to raise prices again - which in turn of course leads to further loss of sales, their response to which is to raise prices again - which in turn of course leads to further loss of sales, their response to which is to raise prices again - which in turn of course leads to further loss of sales, their response to which is to raise prices again  - which in turn of course leads to further loss of sales, their response to which is to raise prices again  - which in turn of course leads to further loss of sales, their response to which is to raise prices again  …  

As wiser, more aware gamers of course we don't want to be exploited like this, so my advice is: Always look for alternative miniatures/products/games and if you must buy GW products do it though an independent store or website - if all did this GW would be forced not only to lower their prices to compete with other brands, but also up their quality to maintain their reputation - and the industry would be a better place!

PS: If you're looking to find the good old flavour the GW that you used to know, you need only look to other companies - nearly all the great designers, artists and sculptors of the past have moved onto other companies and that's one of the main reasons tLatD forum is here

[BobbieTheDamned]

MortiS-the-Lost wrote

Ah yes GW and their fans talk about points value like it's a currency - it's really sad, all to often I hear things like “I don't mind paying £20 for it because it's a 200 point model” (and they're talking about a human sized figure on foot) or “That's a great model to have in your army because it's only 35 points”. Recently I even saw an advert for a Necron army which listed the points value of the models rather than the prices! The points value of a model seems to take president over quality of sculpt for a lot of GW fans. I don't know, maybe in future GW stores will have some kind of exchange rate between money and game points, and their customers will pay for things in points with a special card. Until then justifying a high price a for high points value model or a model having a low points value for how powerful it is in the rules being a selling point is pathetic behaviour. These people need to get their priorities strait and GW as company is exploiting this no-end.

I couldn't agree more, GW has always had a bit of a funny policy with special characters costing more for the same amount of metal. I seem to remember asking about that at some point and being fed the line 'because they're special characters we make less so have to charge more to get the money for the mould' which even to my teen self seemed a crock.

Thousand and One Sons wrote

The loyalist space marines are ok if you suspend disbelief. Not too hard to do with the basic marines, but of course when a terminator with shoulder joints 6 foot apart and a head located somewhere in the middle of its chest is supposed to be piloted by a human, it requires some blind faith.

Termies arn't actually all that bad they're just badly scaled against regular marines, as I recall there was actually a top half of terminator armour that was made for an add for spacehulk (I think...) that used to be displayed at GW Lenton that obviously had to at one point have had a guy in it for filming and had the same proportions as the minis of the time.

MortiS-the-Lost wrote

Some much nicer Chaos Cultist were produced in the late 90's

I do actually like the new cultists, in fact all of the chaos minis in the new set apart from the dreadnought aren't terrible, they're just overpriced. I love the old cultist minis...think you could probably get something vaugely similar with flagellant torsos, thinned down catachan arms and maybe some heads from somewhere else...

MortiS-the-Lost wrote

GW have really lost their touch when it comes to sculpting anatomy (not to mention texture) - and the culprit to blame is the the computer modelling and 3D printing process they use to make the masters for most of their miniatures these days - that and sheer laziness. There's always been inconsistencies of scale and proportion amongst GW's ranges but it's worse than even these days - again I blame the detachment of a computer generated model from the real thing.

Yeah the digital sculpting has made them very lazy it would seem. To many sets have 4 or so actual poses each with a few detail changes to save on design time. Which would be fine for incredibly regimented troops (would love to see some empire soldiers that actually look trained!) only they seem not to do it for them and only for less regimented armies like skaven and suchlike..

[greenstuff_gav]

i enjoyed reading your thoughts on the new box set; it's always interesting to read about old-school gamers trying out the new stuff :)

Couplea points i'd like to throw in tho

Regarding 40k Background:
I came to wargaming at the start of 2nd edition but picked up and loved Rogue Trader (even with its dodgy rules!) but as with many games / series 40k has gotten darker as it's evolved (just look at Discworld; what started as a fun satire has evolved into some quite dark storylines).
I personally prefer the Grimdark style for the game, wackier light-hearted stuff is more for movies and books.

Regarding New Editions:
40k had some major jumps; 1st to 2nd was near-enough a complete rewrite. 2nd to 3rd shifted focus from characters and individuals to units. 3rd to 4th reworked alot of the game from combat to vehicles. from 4th to 6th have mainly been tweaks; 6th's focus (or quite rightly "gimmick") is on flying vehicles and a new method of shooting (overwatch / Snapfire) as well as an overhaul of all the myriad of special rules, condensing them into the main book.

Regarding Miniatures:
GW are "heroic" scale 28mm, so are more like 30mm (measure foot to eye) while Hasslefree are 25 / 28mm scale and are more "realistic" in their proportions.
This is deliberate; GW's focus on the "4 year cycle" lends itself to more OTT heroic actions and setups and thus the miniatures and artwork reflect this alot more.

Regarding Pricing:
i've never been a fan of GW's "pay to win" strategies, but again, this comes back to the 4-year-cycle; you want a powerful force? buy the latest / most expensive releases.
the price of the starter sets have always been very good and when you consider people like Triple Helix sell at 20% off RRP and free shipping it makes the starters very good value (we totalled up the Ltd Edition box went on average for £120 on fleabay once broken down!)... even if full 1500 / 2000pt armies are still well above my hobby-budget!

Rob, i tried the catachan arms on the new cultists and they don't fit at all :(
the Cadians work, but need a fair bit of work to distress 'em; removing armour plates and adding tears to the sleeves etc...

ojn the whole? i'm a fan of 6th's starter set and the rules themselves aren't too terrible (there are several things i have issue with; Fliers, Overwatch and Hammer of Wrath being my top ones).
On the whole? i'll stick to Inquisitor, thank you very much :)

[BobbieTheDamned]

greenstuff_gav wrote

Regarding 40k Background:
I came to wargaming at the start of 2nd edition but picked up and loved Rogue Trader (even with its dodgy rules!) but as with many games / series 40k has gotten darker as it's evolved (just look at Discworld; what started as a fun satire has evolved into some quite dark storylines).
I personally prefer the Grimdark style for the game, wackier light-hearted stuff is more for movies and books.

I do like some of the new background, I just don't agree on massively re-writing large sections of background...especially when the people re-writing it have very tenuous grasps on established background in the first place.

greenstuff_gav wrote

Regarding New Editions:
40k had some major jumps; 1st to 2nd was near-enough a complete rewrite. 2nd to 3rd shifted focus from characters and individuals to units. 3rd to 4th reworked alot of the game from combat to vehicles. from 4th to 6th have mainly been tweaks; 6th's focus (or quite rightly "gimmick") is on flying vehicles and a new method of shooting (overwatch / Snapfire) as well as an overhaul of all the myriad of special rules, condensing them into the main book.

Appart from the fact that there were books released under 1st that nearly made it 2nd...and WD articles that made 3rd in to 4th....I do like snapfire though, finally makes flamers worth taking. I'm not sure if the universal special rules are actually a step forwards...You've got to either memorise or have a reference sheet for everything else about your army so remembering/writing down a few special rules isn't a lot more effort and having unique abilities adds something to the game IMHO.

greenstuff_gav wrote

Rob, i tried the catachan arms on the new cultists and they don't fit at all :(
the Cadians work, but need a fair bit of work to distress 'em; removing armour plates and adding tears to the sleeves etc...

Oh I was talking about putting them on the WFB flagellant bodies, but yeah I can imagine the hulking great muscles don't fit so well on the new figures. I suppose the flagellant arms themselves with weapon swaps at the wrists would probably be a better idea.

greenstuff_gav wrote

On the whole? i'll stick to Inquisitor, thank you very much :)

Sensible man.

[MortiS-the-Lost]

greenstuff_gav wrote

Regarding 40k Background:
I came to wargaming at the start of 2nd edition but picked up and loved Rogue Trader (even with its dodgy rules!) but as with many games / series 40k has gotten darker as it's evolved (just look at Discworld; what started as a fun satire has evolved into some quite dark storylines).
I personally prefer the Grimdark style for the game, wackier light-hearted stuff is more for movies and books.

RobertTheDamned wrote

I do like some of the new background, I just don't agree on massively re-writing large sections of background...especially when the people re-writing it have very tenuous grasps on established background in the first place.

I first encounter 40k in the same period as Gav, but I'd have to say that yt hasn't gotten any darker - it's mainly just had all the fun sucked out of and replaced with stupid stuff that impresses the kiddies. I tend to read “Grimdark” as “trying too hard” when it comes to people talking about the 40k background - or as the kids say 'Fluff' - which just about sums up the amount respect the 40k background is given these days by GW's fans, designers and authors.  

greenstuff_gav wrote

Regarding New Editions:
40k had some major jumps; 1st to 2nd was near-enough a complete rewrite. 2nd to 3rd shifted focus from characters and individuals to units.

RobertTheDamned wrote

Appart from the fact that there were books released under 1st that nearly made it 2nd...and WD articles that made 3rd in to 4th....

1st to 2nd was mostly gradual (at least in terms of the way the game played) due to books like Chapter Approved - shifting the game away from scenario based game play with RPG elements and a GM to more competitive Army Vs Army style. The major changes between the 1st 2nd editions being the cutting out of generation tables, the 'Personal Characteristics' being dropped and vehicle and robot rules being simplified. 1st and 2nd edition 40k reflected and were mechanically compatible with the contemporary editions of WFB - 40k 1st with WFB 3rd and 40k 2nd with WFB 4th and 5th.
2nd edition was expanded in a modular fashion by the 'codexes', scenario packs and the very useful Data-Fax card system for vehicles which allowed for quick reference and easy army building.
Then 3rd edition came along (and IMO ruined it). Over all it became a very different game, no longer compatible with WFB. The overly simplified movement rules took away a huge amount of strategy from the game, the Force Organisation Charts cut down the flexibility of most armies (and made others impossible to field), all the expansion materials from previous codexes and so on was scrapped to be replaced with extremely cut down new codexes which were little more than just strait army lists and huge chunks of the background were dropped from the game in the process too - most noticeably, The entire Squat race, the unique Ork Technologies/weapons and Genestealer Cults to mention but a few. 3rd edition is where the '4-year-cycle' began and the kiddies with their Spaze Mahrines took grip of the game. Since then there has been no major change in 40k over all - each new edition I hear people telling me it's gone back to it's roots and it's a lot more like 2nd edition, it never is (is never likely to be) and I will not be tricked into buying the latests edition on such empty promises. Yea so a few old school things come back from time to time - the Jokaero made a brief come-back as a (background-defying) special unit for the new (very silly) Grey Knights, Orks got back the Shokk Attack Gun (but little else) and Razorwings appeared in the Dark Eldar forces (for some reason) but it's too little, too late and far too high a price tag!

[Thousand and One Sons]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[greenstuff_gav]

MortiS-the-Lost wrote

The entire Squat race, the Jokaero made a brief come-back as a (background-defying) special unit for the new (very silly) Grey Knights,

Squats (beastmen and cat-people) are only mentioned in the current edition; it gives rise to small bands of survivors :)
the jokaero were reintroduced as a single guy in an Inquisitorial Henchman unit .. very Inquisitor-themed (after all, i wrote a short peice for an Inquisitor Jokaero) but not practical for 40k IMO

MortiS-the-Lost wrote

Genestealer Cults

ah, i heard from a BL author GW put a ban on using 'stealer cults in books as they don't fit 40k's mass battle games.. i think they dropped the ball, especially with the 40k Allies rules; Tyranids ally with no-one and thus GW missed the opportunity to allow stealer/guard armies :(

i likes the Shokk attack Guns' return; minus the complicated 2nd ed snotling base ammo system it's delightfully random; i've won games by removing units (double six!) and also killed 1000pts of my own army turn one (double one!) with mine; i always field it :D
they tried to return some of the randomness with Bomb Squigs, Zzap Guns / Snazzguns random Str, and Stormboys jump packs (explode on a 1) but didn't quite get back to 2nd ed's pure delightfully randomness
which for a wargame is understandable; you want some fun random (like trukks random destruction table) but with the older editions you couldn't really plan anything or have any control over your own army...

[Richie the Orc]

Yeah definately missed out with the 'stealer cult armies! So what reason do the GW illuminati give for dropping the Genestealer cultists? I dropped out of playing 40k when 3rd edition came out and got back into  it with 5th, not knowing that after 2 years they would change the rules AGAIN, so I missed out on some of the major changes. I'm more of a GW old  school board gamer, still yet to find something 40k related that was as much fun as Space Hulk 1st edition, and something Warhammer Fantasy themed as good as Talisman!

[Thousand and One Sons]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.