Re: Basic D&D or T&T with random dungeons
Posted by Billiam Babble on Aug 09, 2012; 10:28pm
URL: http://the-lost-and-the-damned.71.s1.nabble.com/Basic-D-D-or-T-T-with-random-dungeons-tp7578416p7578431.html
Loads of excellent points, both of you. Thanks. :)
I think I saw the GM Mythic Emulator and couldn't see anything dramatically new from older games.
CS, I think the earlier D&D monster encounter tables were pretty much like your relative strength table - although everyone seems to call them "matrices" these days (which baffles me much like it does Mortis) - where in AD&D and D&D Basic/Expert there was a more than straight forward relationship between the dungeon level, the party level and the encounter strength (if x - roll on table y) - interesting to see how that one developed over the years (in Challenge Ratings etc.). ;)
I think we're all of a similar mind of the impractical side to random dungeons, by table or tile. I keep trying to get away from almost silly randomness of the AD&D tables but I wouldn't want to copy the Warhammer Quest model directly (just for sheer pedantic originality) - but the latter is just bloody marvellous. I acquired AHQ after WQ and it's really interesting to compare the two, because the AHQ solo rules resemble the dining-table-width busting chaos that happens when you use tables (ah, I see why "matrices" might be useful to avoid confusion)
The room and encounter cards in WQ are effective dungeon-size limiters and the idea of shuffling the quest room into the second half of the pack is inspired. Although sometimes I felt it was too limiting - for example I love having extra exits and splitting the deck down further.
I'm not sure that players (at least without a DM) would be too worried about the logistics of a kitchen and feast room being on opposite sides of a dungeon level, in the same way that the 20 or so articles I've read over the years on "Dungeon Ecology" pretty much rules out having an exciting selection of adversaries in a small area - we forgive these elements if the over all game is truly dynamic. But it's really important not to lose sight of the perks of a game which may lack goals - I'm certainly against XP gain and shopping alone as a motivators and so in summary random layouts and random encounters probably only have a small function in larger campaign (does this make sense? It be typed funny). But again WHQ controls this quite well - because a one-off game has a completion point - very much like levels in a PC game there's a boss or end room to contend with (it's so hard not to refer to Diablo, Nethack, Torchlight and the rest...)
I too, feel the uniform size of the tiles in Wrath of Ashardalon (and Castle R) are limiting, but it's surprising how well the work as a cross between tiles and drawable cards. At first glance I thought they looked terrible, but after laying out a handful and realising how the black patches worked to create long walls, dividers and pillars I think they did a fairly good job (example layout from a player's review). However, I much prefer the exploration-"reveal" to be a whole chamber - not a corner of torchlight. I certainly prefer grandeur in dungeon architecture. Scribbling on a map a bend of yet another 30ftx10ft corridor is not quite the same as flipping over a card and reading "You have entered the Hall of Crystal".
Again with WHQ, I reckon it's possible to play the whole game without the actual board pieces / tiles - but that misses the point somewhat because the room size and special features effect the combat (which is also true of D&D4 - which is impossible to play without figures and a grid - the skills in WHQ being combat-only orientated is also very similar to D&D4 imho). We come back to the fact that we like moving pieces around through ready-made bits of map.
Hmm.
Dice based tables for the actual dungeon layout kind of suck -cards and tiles seem to do the job very well- but maybe dice tables are still good for contents/monsters/traps/treasure, when not in a "special" room - i.e. mid adventure events - subquest rooms, and boss/final quest goal room.
Thanks for the thoughts. Please add more if suffering from insomnia. ;)
URL: http://the-lost-and-the-damned.71.s1.nabble.com/Basic-D-D-or-T-T-with-random-dungeons-tp7578416p7578431.html
Loads of excellent points, both of you. Thanks. :)
I think I saw the GM Mythic Emulator and couldn't see anything dramatically new from older games.
CS, I think the earlier D&D monster encounter tables were pretty much like your relative strength table - although everyone seems to call them "matrices" these days (which baffles me much like it does Mortis) - where in AD&D and D&D Basic/Expert there was a more than straight forward relationship between the dungeon level, the party level and the encounter strength (if x - roll on table y) - interesting to see how that one developed over the years (in Challenge Ratings etc.). ;)
I think we're all of a similar mind of the impractical side to random dungeons, by table or tile. I keep trying to get away from almost silly randomness of the AD&D tables but I wouldn't want to copy the Warhammer Quest model directly (just for sheer pedantic originality) - but the latter is just bloody marvellous. I acquired AHQ after WQ and it's really interesting to compare the two, because the AHQ solo rules resemble the dining-table-width busting chaos that happens when you use tables (ah, I see why "matrices" might be useful to avoid confusion)
The room and encounter cards in WQ are effective dungeon-size limiters and the idea of shuffling the quest room into the second half of the pack is inspired. Although sometimes I felt it was too limiting - for example I love having extra exits and splitting the deck down further.
I'm not sure that players (at least without a DM) would be too worried about the logistics of a kitchen and feast room being on opposite sides of a dungeon level, in the same way that the 20 or so articles I've read over the years on "Dungeon Ecology" pretty much rules out having an exciting selection of adversaries in a small area - we forgive these elements if the over all game is truly dynamic. But it's really important not to lose sight of the perks of a game which may lack goals - I'm certainly against XP gain and shopping alone as a motivators and so in summary random layouts and random encounters probably only have a small function in larger campaign (does this make sense? It be typed funny). But again WHQ controls this quite well - because a one-off game has a completion point - very much like levels in a PC game there's a boss or end room to contend with (it's so hard not to refer to Diablo, Nethack, Torchlight and the rest...)
I too, feel the uniform size of the tiles in Wrath of Ashardalon (and Castle R) are limiting, but it's surprising how well the work as a cross between tiles and drawable cards. At first glance I thought they looked terrible, but after laying out a handful and realising how the black patches worked to create long walls, dividers and pillars I think they did a fairly good job (example layout from a player's review). However, I much prefer the exploration-"reveal" to be a whole chamber - not a corner of torchlight. I certainly prefer grandeur in dungeon architecture. Scribbling on a map a bend of yet another 30ftx10ft corridor is not quite the same as flipping over a card and reading "You have entered the Hall of Crystal".
Again with WHQ, I reckon it's possible to play the whole game without the actual board pieces / tiles - but that misses the point somewhat because the room size and special features effect the combat (which is also true of D&D4 - which is impossible to play without figures and a grid - the skills in WHQ being combat-only orientated is also very similar to D&D4 imho). We come back to the fact that we like moving pieces around through ready-made bits of map.
Hmm.
Dice based tables for the actual dungeon layout kind of suck -cards and tiles seem to do the job very well- but maybe dice tables are still good for contents/monsters/traps/treasure, when not in a "special" room - i.e. mid adventure events - subquest rooms, and boss/final quest goal room.
Thanks for the thoughts. Please add more if suffering from insomnia. ;)
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