TOPIC: the discussion warseer and GW dont want you to have

[General Biakal]

the bottom line gentlemen is this.

there is no FUCKING way anybody on this earth can justify the cost of the hobby (using GW stuff), especially starting out.

the hellhound is a great model but are you REALLY telling me it costs £15 a sprue?

a friend of mine has played 40k since he was 12 and said this to me yesterday (which actually made me sad)

" im gonna sell my revenant titan, but i would rather take the £100 or so and BURN it, rathe rthan give GW one bastard penny"

he is very very disalusioned by the increase in prices and to be honest i agree, but the people i feel for most is the guys who play WH fantasy.

not only do you pay like fuck for models but when you get them they are shit. At least the quality of the 40k releses seems to be consistantly amazing (minus pyrovore) looking if not bad value for money.


there must be  a "tipping point" when we all go "ENOUGH"... and i feel this last rise is bringing it closer- i have heard so much bad feeling from this one i fear the end might be nigh...

or am i over reacting?

gentlemen, discuss...

[Marchomer]

Now I say you a thing that I don't know if you knew.
The rise of the cost of the GW hobby is unbelivable, everyone know this, but in non-UK countries (like in Italy, in Germany, and I don't know where...), the cost is, in average, 20% bigger!

Few example:
The new  8th edition WFB costs 45£ = 53,8€ WRONG! in Italy it costs 60€
A night goblin regiment costs 18£ = 21,5€ WRONG! in Italy it costs 30€ (25£!!! )
And so on...

So I can't think that you are over reacting! You're right, especially for those people who doesn't live in UK, it's really enough.

I remember when I bought my first troll in 1997 it cost 5,8£ , nowadays it costs 16,7£!
(I converted the Italian prices in pounds)

[Scumdog47]

"Strangely" enough Reaper is lowering their prices.
At least at their Swedish main retailer.

What this tells us of the market...I'm not sure.

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Yea I think this may well be it (especially for WFB players), GW have finally gone 1 price rise too far. Some people are quitting the hobby all together, while others are looking into alternative sources of miniatures and rules. And the rest of the industry, in turn is beginning to respond.  

Scumdog47 wrote

"Strangely" enough Reaper is lowering their prices.
At least at their Swedish main retailer.

What this tells us of the market...I'm not sure.

Reaper, despite being rather difficult to get hold of for us in the UK are probably one of the most forward thinking companies in the industry. During the last price rise caused by the rising price of metals, Reaper brought out a range of their most popular miniatures cast in a less expensive alloy. (See: http://the-lost-and-the-damned.664610.n2.nabble.com/It-s-Heavy-Metal-Dude-td1091201.html#a1091201 for more details)  

so can GW justify their prices because of the costs of metals? NO

What about the expensive technology and design work that goes into making their plastics? Does that justify the high prices?

Well Mantic Games are producing similar plastic kits to GW using the same sort of processes. Their miniatures are of equal (and in some cases much higher) quality and for less than half the cost!
Mantic currently have 3 fantasy races out: Undead, Elves and Dwarfs with more races to come. All going well (which it is so far) Mantic will have covered all the generic fantasy races with in the space of 2 years.
Please note during the recent GW price rise Mantic put out a video mocking GW's announcement and at once pointing out how much better value their own products are! (see: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=396051105911)

So can GW justify their prices because of the costs of the manufacturing processes of their plastics? NO


British jobs for British workers. This is a kinda tricky one any way as it doesn't apply out side of the UK, but as a county with a high unemployment rate, a corporate-culture where everyone wants an office management job and most of our less desirable jobs are done by poorly paid immigrants and school leavers, us British don't mind playing a little extra if it means there are going to jobs for people. GW as you know is a British company and proudly so.... but hang on ...


^ has anyone else noticed these stickers starting to appear

So can GW justify their prices because their products are manufactured in the UK? NO

So what is excuse is their left? I'm going to loosen up the format and rant here a little, here's one of the stupidest things I've heard out of GW staff member in a discussion about the high prices:
“It's a hobby and compared to other hobbies like say Hang-Gliding it's fairly cheap, think how much Hang-Gliding or Golf equipment costs...”

First of all, what an odd thing to compare war-gaming to. Are GW products really marketed at people in the same tax bracket as people who play golf and go Hang-Gliding? Cos I was rather under the impression from their publications that GW products are targeted at 12-14 year-old kids who like big guns and chainsaws and competitive one-up-man-ship in the form of how many Space Marines they can put on a table to win the game. (I mean it's certainly not targeted at us any more)

Ok, as I don't really know what Golf carts and Hang Gliders cost I'm going take a look at prices online.

A set of Golf clubs seems to cost between £100 and £200 (that's a Forge World Titan or one of those army box-sets)

A box of Golf Balls seems to cost between £15 and £30 (that a Until or Tank)

A Golf Trolley (non-motorised) costs around £100 (that's one of those plastic gamings table)  

A pair of Golf Shoes costs between £20 and £60 (that's a Rule Book plus Army Book/Codex or a Boxed Game)

Membership of a Golf Club seems to cost £30+ per month (that's what you'll be spending on extra miniatures and modelling materials)

So yes the things you need to play a game of 40k or WFB (if you do the hobby GW's way) cost about the same as the things you need to start playing golf!

Please note that the prices for golf here are based on what all sports stores/brands/golf clubs charge, there are no cheaper alternatives in Golf (unlike the war-gaming hobby, where GW nearly always has the highest prices compared to other brands)

Also lets think about what else you can get for similar money, A cheap Second-Hand Car? A decent Computer? A Electric Guitar? A Wide Screen TV?

So can GW justify their prices because of their comparative value to other expensive products and hobbies? FUCK NO!

Finally here's some tips on not playing over the odd on your hobby (these are Tips GW don't want you to know!)

1 Stop buying GW miniatures especially plastic ones, if you really can't think of an alternative company to get your minis from you probably don't have a clue about the hobby as a whole and you should educate your self by having a good read of the posts we make in the Miniatures Discussion section of The Lost and the Damned forum http://the-lost-and-the-damned.664610.n2.nabble.com/Miniatures-Discussion-f664926.html

2 if you must buy GW products get them though an independent retailer, not only do most give a good discount, but GW get less money that way (which may in the long term may force them to re-think how they market and price their products ... that or they'll go bust and be eaten alive by their share-holders).

3 Buy miniatures second hand, with the fast turnover of GW's target audience of 12-14 year olds and people quitting the hobby due to the recent price rise there are loads of second hand miniatures out there. You can strip the paint off badly painted miniatures using house-hold Dettol!

4 Stick with 1 edition of the rules your happy with and stop buying the new ones when they come out! Don't be fooled into thinking you won't be able to field new Units, Troop Types or Vehicles, most editions of 40k have has vehicle design rules and some older games like WFB 3rd and Rogue Trader (and many others) had rules for working out points values for your house-rules troops.

5 Look for alternative rules sets, there are lots out there and some of them are available Free online as PDFs  

can anyone else add to this list? Please do!

[Marchomer]

MortiS-the-Lost wrote

can anyone else add to this list? Please do!

suggestions for the "paintish" part of the hobby:

6. Take a hard look at D.I.Y. shops. Sometimes it's easy to find out spray acrylic paints for undercoating and protective coating (they're identical to the GW except for the price 1£ instead 8£) and acrylic paints (in the right shop it's not unusual to find citadel-like paints with a ridiculous price).
And, obviously, D.I.Y. is synonymous of: cheap plywood (for bases, tabletop, scenery, buildings...), infinite number of objects to create games accessories, tons of very good brushes, tools, glue, strange substances...  

7. Open up the mind. I think this is the best suggestion (both for the materials and for the creation of rules), it's important to put on trial new ideas or materials to create by yourself models and accessories... Eventually with recycled stuff, sometimes the better result comes with the worst of the source and the least of the cost.

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Aha! Yes paints! I think it might be worth having a whole separate rambling thread about the different makes of paint out there and where to buy them