QT 2012 - Zombies in London (Necromunda basis)

[messyart]

Basically; The original thread = mess.
The rules are *everywhere* as you would expect for having made it all up as we went along.. Well, this thread will be neatening it all up!

To summarise the play system; We use Necromunda with some very important changes.
* No "Gangs". Each player commands a single survivor and joins up with every other player to survive. In games of only a couple of players, they may take multiple survivors. Minimum survivors is suggested to be 4. Maximum is up to the people interested, and the dedication of the GM. I suggest 6 to keep control.
*Assault is no longer Necromunda-based. We use a Mordheim styled form of combat which is not far removed from, say, 40k. Except in a single combat, only the model whose turn it is can strike. The opponent must wait until their own turn to fight back.

and so onto game changes;
Turns go as usual. First each player does their actions individually, then the GM makes his turn.

The player phase consists of the following actions;
Movement/ charging
Shooting
Close combat
Recovery

The order, however, is taken more RPG'ingly.
The only portion of the player phase that is set is the Recovery phase. It MUST come after all else. But the order of the rest is entirely up to each player as their game progresses.

Some weapons prevent close combat and shooting in the same turn, but that will be explained later.

Players have two new stats on their chart to what you'll recognise in Necromunda, and I shall explain them now;
DT; Determination. They act like "fate points". You may expend a single Determination point to re-roll any dice.
As a solid example of a time you might want this, we played a game where a plucky survivor had scoured every last zombie, having luckily just finished off a Behemoth on their own. They had been downed, however, and passed away as they crawled to their final objective. Had they had a Determination point, they could have used it to save themself from that dreaded 6 on the recovery chart, and make it that final movement to safety.
Some classes can increase DT, likewise increasing in experience allows players to increase certain stats, DT included.
DT is refreshed for every game.
There is one unique situation in which a player may use their DT point for someone other than themselves, and that is during a gambling session with the NPC "Gambler Richard". DT may be used to force Richard to re-roll one of his dice.

WL; Weight limit. Represents how much a survivor can physically carry. Almost everything has a weight, and it can stack up fast if you bring bigger guns to play. Rare pieces of kit can help increase a characters WL, and there are allies who can help carry your load, too. Be it medium and large dogs, who can carry anything up to 1WL or allies who can match your own survivor and be used to ferry bigger guns about.

Cash and Experience;
Players killing the infected gain a reputation amongst local traders, those who have a great enough inventory to sell weapons off to any who ask for them.
Cash earned by killing the infected is rationalised by the fact that some corpses will have valuables on their corpses, and sometimes survivors will take trophies to gain "extra credit" from the traders.
Special infected and boss-type zombies, too, carry a weight of reputation and trophies. And the danger to traders and survivors alone grants those who kill them a great deal of favour amongst them all.
As survivors get better-known, traders and sometimes even other survivors will happily trade off their better stashed equipment, allowing prolific zombie-slayers access to far better weaponry.

The zombie turn is a bit more complicated.
1. Spawn roll, if in play during the given scenario/ if triggered by a survivor.
2. Sprint roll. D4 zombies sprint in this turn. [This is the only way Infected are allowed to sprint]
3. Movement
4. Shooting
5. Close combat
6. "Get back up" roll. D4 zombies who have been knocked to the floor by any method can get back onto their feet.

In addition, the zombies make a few vital changes to the way the game is played;
The rules for downed zombies are as follows;
If hit or wounded by ranged weapons, a zombie will always be taken to the floor. Being set on fire and wounded by it will never down a zombie. It can only kill it.
Following hits that wound the zombie will kill it, without a roll on the recovery chart.
Infected get no armour saves.

Some special zombies have saves, they are divided between "armour saves" and "dodge saves"
The difference is as thus;
Armour saves; Taken against all wounds. Modified by weapons that modify saves.
Dodge saves; Taken against all wounds. Cannot be modified unless hit by any weapon that uses a templates.

If a fighter wounds a zombie in close combat, it will be removed instantly from play, unless there are any STANDING zombies within 2" of the wounded model. If such is the case, all downed zombies will remain on the board [attacking, with 1 less A then usual] until the last standing zombie around them is killed or downed.
They are considered "Alive" right up until the survivors turn, then, instead of attacking them normally, he may remove as many zombies as he has attacks [So consider each of his attacks an instant hit, instant wound and treat it as if shooting them].
This means gunning down a bunch of zombies and charging the remains will finish them off efficiently.

Special zombies will never go down, or suffer flesh wounds. Instead they roll on the following table when they have lost their final wound;
1 - Angered - The zombie is at -1 Ws for the next turn
2-5 - Staggered - The zombie cannot move or shoot. If it was staggered in close combat, it recovers before its' next turn. Place a stagger marker beside the zombie, to remind the GM if he has not been paying attention.
6 - Deader - Remove the model from play.


If a survivor is downed by zombies, he will not be immediately taken "out of action". He will remain, albiet on the floor, until he either rolls a flesh wound, rolls an "out of action" result, or is helped by teammates.
The zombies can still attack him, and every further wound will force him to make a new armour save, and a new injury roll if failed.
What's more, while the survivor cannot fight back in melee, he may shoot at the zombies.
Normal Bs is taken into account, and they may even use a grenade [Which will not scatter] if they feel suicidal.

If they have a bit of room to crawl and manuevre, they may declare they are "Dropping da bomb" before they crawl, in which they place the blast marker and move their model 2" from their starting spot [providing there is enough room].
They then roll an initiative test. If they fail, they will be hit, counting as if fully under the blast. If they pass, they can escape all effects of the grenade regardless of whether or not they are under the blast.
They may not crawl if they are surrounded, as they will be effectively pinned and trapped in place. Judge by base gaps, as to if they will be able to back away.


Zombie spawning;
The GM should draw a small map of the game board, and split it into sections. Each section is a trigger, and once a survivor has stepped inside it, a pre-determined/ #D6 number of zombies appear.
They may be placed anywhere on the board, but no closer than 5" from any survivor.
This prevents an immediate swarming, but rather a brief window of escape or "trimming" of their numbers.

Dependant on the scenario, no more than a third of the total sections of the board can spawn 2D6 zombies, the rest must roll a single dice.
However, any number of sections will spawn a special zombie [a single special of each type may be used in any one game, unless special scenarios are set up for particularly successful survivor groups]. And Behemoths/ Brutes are considered as something of a finale.
To put it simply, if you have a set destination for your survivors, ensure the Behemoth is somewhere along the only choice of paths they can take, preferably at the end.
If the GM chooses to field the Wailer, he marks one specific spot on his map pre-game. Once a survivor comes within 24" of the marker, the model is placed.
It is advised to include the Wailer only in games in which the survivors have earned at least 100 experience points through their campaign. Sure, you can place her in a starting game, but you'll not be making many friends.

Once a group has shown they can clear your 2D6 groups of zombies in short order, without much of a threat, feel free to beef up the roll by an extra D6.

Fire;
Some weapons set living tissues on fire when used.
Place a fire marker beside them, they now have +1 increased strength and attack stats, but suffer D3 Str 3 hits every turn until the model on fire can pass a save roll [most Infected and Special Infected have no armour or dodge rolls so they do not get this luxury]


Game mode;
The game itself is one long, lasting campaign. New players need not worry, as older players can sell them their older weaponry for cheaper, and without a limit to tiers. They will also lower the overal "Difficulty" of any game they take part in.
As characters kill, they gain experience and cash.
Experience gains;
Models with multiple wounds; IE, special infected & Bosses.
Every model that causes a wound will gain the exp/ cash listed on the infecteds'

Or to put it more simply, if you kill a Brute on your own, you will get £200 all to yourself.

Basic zombies;
The Experience and cash reward will go to the survivor who inflicted the "killing blow".
In other words, if one survivor shoots a zombie down, and another runs in an kills them, the one rewarded is the one who kills them.

Fire damage;
Sometimes, a zombie might get set on fire and run away for a bit. It could well die on its' own.
In such instances, the player who initially set the zombie on fire wins the experience when it eventually dies.
If, however, another player kills it before the fire does, THEY will take the rewards for themselves.

Level-up bonuses;
As a player kills, they will grow tougher and more capable in combat.
For every 200 exp, they can raise a single stat of their choice [Except their armour save], by one.
No stat can be raised more than twice by these means.
To do so, they must "trade in" those 200 experience points, thus slowing down their progression through Tiers.



Next up; Weapon stats and wielding rules.

[messyart]

The following explains what weapons are available to what "Tiers"

Rules for some of the gear listed is as follows;

Weapon Repair Kit;
Adds +1 modifier to a single ammo roll made by the survivor. May be used on any weapon at any time.
{So any weapon needing say, a 4+, would have to roll a 3+ in order to pass. Any stating 6+ will need a 5+, etc.}
Alternatively, it may be used to re-roll a failed ammo roll. The player will not get the +1 bonus if they use it for this.

Medkit;
A medkit may be used in any of the following circumstances, for the effect shown.
When out of combat, a medkit may be used. Its use is counted as the use of two Sidearms.
It recovers a single lost wound and removes all "Flesh Wound" penalties.

If a player is Down and not in base contact with zombies, they may use it to get back on their feet. This again, counts as two Sidearm shots, so the player may not sprint afterwards.
In addition, the affects of a single Flesh Wound are negated.

"Drugs";
Used pre-game, they give a bonus to a single stat, as listed in their entry, for the entire game. Once the game is finished, they must purchase a new one if they wish to keep the effect. Otherwise, their statline reverts to basic [Class considered].





The following rules explain "Wielding";
Sidearms are small/ easily wielded weapons, often one handed but weak.
All players can use two Sidearms in the same shooting phase. In addition, all players may move and shoot freely with Sidearms. IE; If a model sprints 8", they may still fire when they reach the end of their movement. On the other hand, they could fire, and then sprint away. If a model fires twice, they cannot attack in close combat. Alternatively, players using Sidearms may fire a single weapon, and then charge into close combat to gain their full compliment of attacks.
This will allow for quick mopping up of downed zombies for players stranded with just pistols to swear by, etc.

Basic weapons are all two handed, weighty but not overly overwhelming for the wielder. Due to their large and violent nature, duel wielding them is all but impossible for those not well versed in such fighting styles. They may not be fired before or after sprinting, and the player using them may not fight in close combat before or after doing so.
The Runner is the only class capable of sprinting and firing a basic weapon, and the rules for this are found in the section of classes.

Cumbersome weapons are hefty pieces of kit, and those using them must put more thought into how they do so, and less into.. anything else.
Players are not allowed to sprint if they intend on using cumbersome weapons, and cannot fight in close combat in the same turn. The difference between Basic and Cumbersome comes into play when using the Duel Wielder and Heavy classes. Their own rules reflect the changes.

Thrown weapons are thrown 8" regardless of S value. They always scatter D6 - Bs of the thrower.

Placed weapons (Powder charges and C4) are .. placed.
To do so, a player must place a marker to show the spot the charge was placed in. They can be placed anywhere within 8". This will count as having used a single Sidearm for all intents and purposes, so they may fire a second Sidearm, or charge into combat in the same turn.
In any following turn, the player can detonate the charge. This again, counts as having used a single Sidearm.


And finally; shields.
They are one handed close combat weapons, as such. They will grant an extra attack dice if the player is carrying any Sidearm or single handed close combat weapon, but does not grant any physical bonus beyond the armour save increase as shown by which type is purchased. It may be used against ranged attacks.
To carry it counts as having used a single Sidearm, and a player must declare that they are using it at the start of any turn, and then declare again when they lower their shield. During this time they gain the armour bonus, and the -1 Sidearm limit.

*Ammendments;
Chainsaws are two handed close combat weapons.

In addition to the bought equipment, players may find odd rarities and weapon stacks, as well as make-shift weapons.
Remote controlled cars/ robots;

An odd occurance, some survivors have come across remote controlled cars in stores they were looting, and after tinkering with it at home, have come out on looting trips with remote bombs.
& Sometimes, lucky survivors will come across military robots that are still intact.
They wield powerful machine guns, and save survivors some ammo as they fend off the undead.

R/C toys;
Found only in looting games where the GM has expressely told survivors they are dealing with "toy shops".
Any survivor entering the toy shop may walk out with one.
In order to loot one, they must simply roll a 4+ during any turn inside the shop. This takes up their action.
It weighs 2 and is added to their inventory. If they do not have the room to carry it, they can leave it in the shop, and any other survivor can take it without rolling for it.

In their next game, if they survive, they are able to use the R/C toy with the following rules;
Acts like a placed grenade. But every turn, it can move 10".
If the toy was declared by the GM as a car, it suffers normal terrain penalties and cannot climb objects. If it was declared an R/c Helicopter/ Plane, it must roll an Initiative test, using the survivors Initiative stat, to pass over terrain and zombies, or it crashes.
A plane or helicopter that crashes is now immobile, but can still be detonated.
An R/c toy is counted as a frag grenade when it explodes.
In addition, any survivor using an R/C toy counts as having two uses of a Sidearm.

R/c robot;
Rarely found, and usually near the corpses of soldiers. It is often a tracked drone with a remote control with built-in camera.
It moves 5" a turn and is unaffected by terrain, but cannot climb vertically.
It counts as carrying a Military Assault rifle. If it fails an ammo roll, the player must relinquish their toy and move on. No one else can use it.

All R/c models are instantly destroyed by successful ranged attacks.
Only special zombies can attack them in close combat, and they are always hit on 4+, and wounded on a 2+.
If the model wounds the R/c model on a 6, it explodes like a frag grenade, regardless of whether it is a toy or a robot.
Otherwise, regardless of type of R/c model, it will not explode on destruction.


Bits & Bobs;
Every street is filled with rubble and scattered rubbish, be it bricks or poles.
The smartest survivor knows to use these when their ammo runs dry.
For any piece of terrain you enter, you can throw D6 bits and bobs at any enemy within 8".
The strength of the bits and bobs are dependant on how many are rolled. It equals 7 - the D6 result.
So if you roll a 4, you'll get 4 Str 3 projectiles.
If you roll a 2, you'd get 2 Str 5 projectiles, and a D6 roll of 6 would give you 6 Str 1 projectiles.
They cannot be kept after a game.
To use them counts as two uses of a Sidearm for all intents and purposes.

Weapon piles;
Sometimes players will find small hold-outs {be they full of bodies from those who died defending themsevles or simply abandoned, weapons included}, corpses or otherwise conveniently placed bunches of guns just ready for the taking.
The GM decides what weapons are present, and in what numbers. For example, you may find the corpse of a solider, carrying a military shotgun and a machine gun.
Or a small ring of sandbags, with the dispatched remnants of survivors, still cradling a couple of civilian assault rifles, SMGs and frag grenades.
Any weapon may be found in these objectives, not limiting Tier 1 survivors to their own class of guns.

Here's the catch;
Survivors can only use this weapon for a single game.
Weapon repair kits will grant no bonus to the weapon, as the survivor will be unfamiliar with it, thus unable to hastily break it down to clean it up/ make quick repairs.
Weight limits are applied. No model can exceed their limit, and they cannot drop their old weapons unless they have failed an ammo roll.


In addition to the above;
Special ammo types [only available either via – work shop, or via traders inventory]
Ammo types would have the following type of affect;

Hollow point rounds;
Do a ghastly amount of damage to soft, fleshy targets. Like your average zombie.
Against the undead without armour saves, it grants a 2+ modifier to wound.
Can be used for any bullet-firing weapon.

Trader value; £200

Armour piercing rounds;
Capable of sheering through armour and tough skin without difficulty, the armour piercing rounds can help pummel through the tough structure of special infected, like Brutes.
It gives a -2 modifier to the save negating ability of the weapon armed with them. [Thus allowing a basic – save mod pistol to ignore saves of 5+, or allowing a -6 saving assault rifle to ignore saves of 4+.]
Can be used for any bullet-firing weapon

Trader value; £150

Explosive rounds;
Rare, and used generally only by heavy machine guns, the explosive round can annihilate small swarms of zombies in small bursts.
It allows every shot use the 1" blast template. Roll to hit as if firing normal shots. Misses still miss.
Can be used for any bullet-firing weapon [Despite the description]

Trader value; £200

Solid slug shells;
The solid slug can almost turn a shotgun into a hunting rifle in terms of accuracy and power. It forgoes the stopping power of a spread-shot, but makes up for it with sheer force.
It grants a -1 save modifier [on top of whatever may be granted by the weapon firing it] and is a +1 S.
Can only be used for shotguns.
They use the same stats as the shotgun using them, except their range is no longer worked out with the shotgun template, firing a single shot with the following ranges;
0-12 for short, and 12-36 for long. Short range gains a +1 to hit, long range has no modifier.

Trader value; £100

Heavy buckshot;
A heavier buckshot replaces the pellets of the shotgun shell, turning zombies inside out.
All partial hits under the template are hit on a 3+

Trader value; £200

Incendiary rounds;
Able to set targets on fire for short periods of time, causing lasting fire damage.
The incendiary round is very hard to come by, and costs a great deal when found on roaming traders, but can turn the tide when fighting special zombies.
If a model is successfully hit by an incendiary round, it is set on fire.
Can only be used for bullet-firing weapons.

Trader value; £300


Flechette shot;
Used only in shotguns OR grenade launchers, the Flechette shot fires what are essentially small darts. they leave gaping wounds in their targets and, if fired from shotguns, can cover a far wider area in their spread.
As mentioned, they are used either as alternative shotgun ammo, or as a special ammo type for grenade launchers, using the following stats;

If used in a shotgun, the entire template counts as short ranged, and every wound not saved against is taken as two.
(So if you shot a normal infected with a military shotgun, and inflicted 3 wounds [They have D3 damage] the zombie would take 6 wounds in all.)

Trader value; £400

Custom bolt;
Strictly for shotguns. An arrow is packed into the barrel of the shotgun with a modified shell.
It does not use the template, instead firing a single dart that can penetrate only a few models at once.
If the first target is hit and wounded, the shot will carry on into up to two more zombies directly behind the initial target. It will pass through them exactly as for the first model hit.
Any models wounded on a 6 are killed outright and do not get an injury roll.
It has a short range of 8" and a long range of 18". At short, it gains a +1 bonus to hit. At long, a -2.

Trader value; Unavailable.


Bolas-shot;
Again, strictly for shotguns, the Bolas-shot does not use a template, instead firing at a single target.
If it hits successfully, it inflicts *triple* the amount of wounds it would tyically inflict.
It has a short range of 8" and a long range of 24". At short, it gains a +1 to hit. At long, a -3.

Trader value; £200


Full metal jacket rounds;
Used in all pistols, rifles, assault rifles and SMGs, the FMJ rounds inflict gaping exit wounds.
If used, it boosts the strength by 1 and the save mod gains a further -1 bonus.

The basic round costs £200, but it may be upgraded further to include an incindiary centre.
Any model wounded and killed by this upgraded round will explode and damage all models within 1", wounding them on a 6+.
To upgrade the FMJ costs a further £100


All special ammo types are very difficult to keep in supply.
If a player fails an ammo roll while using special rounds, they may pick either to lose the weapon, but keep the rounds, or lose the rounds but keep the weapon.
The rounds may not be used for any gun in a different category.



Next up;
Character creation

[messyart]

Character creator page

Next up; Zombie stats and bestiaries

[messyart]

This will be filled


Next up, a couple of bl;ank pages to cover anything extra

[messyart]

:D

[messyart]

I LIED ABOUT THEM BEING BLANK

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[messyart]

Posting Necro rules could be problematic. We could put a link up to the Necro PDF, or I could post it as a file, but there's too much to add.


I haven't given much time to sorting everything inot word, yet. Hence incomplete posts in here :3


I keep meaning to work out a spare day to bring your stuff to you ;)

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[messyart]

I showed the changes to the rules above.
I think common sense should tell people which bits to avoid. Like that the weapons have obviously changed.

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[messyart]

Well, for the Day of the Damned, there'll be all of the templates we'll need to play, anyway.

Groovy, that would have been nice for tonights game D:


[Tanks = ... Indescribable amounts of violence. It was beautiful seeing Morts' character flying 30" across the board, half by punch and half by bounce..]

[MortiS-the-Lost]

messyart wrote

[Tanks = ... Indescribable amounts of violence. It was beautiful seeing Morts' character flying 30" across the board, half by punch and half by bounce..]

by 'beautiful' I hope you mean 'ridiculously unrealistic'  

as you know my main criticism of the current rules is that you need to half a lot of the ranged effects and special movement abilities the special zombies have - remember 1" on the tabletop is roughly 5ft  

[messyart]

I have it all out, and shall be making changes as we discussed! :3
12" ballistic punch, 3" max scatter for those hit.
But the scatter damage WILL be increase to match. Currently, it's a S2 wound for every inch you "bounce.

Likewise, the Unborn will lose the 24" vocal ability, but retain the "you can't freely shoot it unless within 8""
Unless it's an indiscriminate thrown weapon, as 8" max thrown range, well..

I am tempted to draw up a new Shotgun template, though. It *does* need to be more conical, like the flamer.

[uncle phil]

This is intended as constructive criticism. While you have a lot of weapon catergories there, some of them don't make sense or could be termed better.

Single Handed SMG –better termed a “Machine Pistol”

Single-use Flamer –what is this? If it is an aerosol can and a lighter the price seems rather high.

Civilian MG –basically an Oxymoron there. I can think of only one weapon that might be classed as this –it hasn’t been made since the 1920s and is probably better termed an automatic rifle.

Civilian Missile Launcher –not sure they even allow those in texas!

Civilian Grenade Launcher –guess you could argue that a Police Riot gas launcher would fit this catergory, but it would be  non-lethal weapon and of limited use against zombies.

Civilian/Military Shotgun. Most military or police shotguns are effectively civilian weapons. A better term here may be to distinguish between magazine shotguns (pumps and autos and the few designs actually purpose built for combat) and non-magazine hunting guns –Single barrel or double barrels.

Single-handed shotgun –better termed “Sawn-off shotgun”

Civilian Flamethrower –(!!!) If this is what I think it is you may be better designating it a improvised or homemade flamethrower.

Two handed Military CC Weapon. Military CC weapons tend to be bayonets, riot batons, machetes and entrenching tools, none of which are really true two-handed weapons.

Two-handed Military pistol. Again, a rather Oxymorinic term. The few pistols I can think of that could arguably be considered two-handed are not military weapons.

Powder Charge. Probably better termed an explosive charge or demolition charge. Powder has tones of "Black Powder" which is unlikely to have S4 damage unless we are dealing with barrels of it.

Weapon categories missing:-
Pistol calibre carbines –this would include semi-auto versions of submachine guns as owned by many civilians and used by some police departments. Would also include various level action carbines commonly used for hunting, cowboy action shooting etc.

Small bore hunting rifle. Ie, the ubiquitous 22.

Assault Pistol. Not as common as they once were I suppose. Semi-auto machine pistol type weapons such as the infamous Tec-9.

[messyart]

The terms "civilian" tend to stand for guns that you could imagine the average person having relative.. "ease" in aquiring.

Wepaons like the single-handed SMG also aren't as clear-cut as just machine pistols and otherwise.
Like one of my characters dual wields P90s, you couldn't call them machine pistols.

No, moreso, the difference between the two handed and single handed SMGs is that if you choose to carry with a single hand, it's vastly more innaccurate over the ranges you'll use it most.

"Civilian grenade launcher" would be more of a single loading grenade pistol type weapon. As is suggested by the fact that it's a sidearm.


The difference between civi' and military shotguns = rate of fire and damage output.
Compare a remington to a Spas or AA12.

Read through the lengthy first thread. I put a little effort into explaining why I call them "civilian" and "military" - Namely that it fits the tiers. Military guns - the best available - are only available once a character has gained enough reputation to be allowed the best weapons.

So don't try just thinking of them as our-world civilian or military, see them in a "this gun would be kept for those most skilled and fitted to using them"

[uncle phil]

I haven't time to read the origianl thread since I am at work. Send me a link and I'll try and find time, riots and girlfriend permitting.

Relative ease in a zombie appocalypse would probably look like....

Level 1. Civilian Street legal self-defence and hunting weapons. Stuff you might have at home or could loot from a gun shop.
Level 2. Weapons available from a police station. Actually much the same as level one with a few light automatic weapons or sniping rifles added.
Level 3. Military stuff that would need to be looted from a military camp or industrial explosives from a quarry, for example (so rarely available in town).

I understand what you are trying to do with "Civilian" and "Military" but I think that the terms are confusing here. You are better off using abstract titles such as tier 1, tier 2, etc. "Civilain-MG" is oxymoronic, since civilians are seldom permitted automatic weapons and rarely would own heavy automatics even if licenced. Looking at your stats it looks like Civilian MG and Military MG might better be termed LMG and MMG/GPMG.

The P90 is a SMG, (if you cut through all the hype). It can be wielded single handed, but so too can many large SMGs and indeed many assualt rifles. A friend of mine of only about 5'6" once defended his tank with a Grease gun in each hand-when the adrenaline is on you.. For that matter, many machine pistols are generally used with two hands.
Is the distinguishing feature of a single-hand SMG that it can be used in close combat? That doesn't really seem fair for the P90.

"single loading grenade pistol type weapon". Most of the weapons I know that could meet that discription are riot control weapons rather than explosive throwers -the H&K adaptor for their flare pistol that can launch grenades being a notable exception. Again, very confusing to call this a civilian weapon.

"The difference between civi' and military shotguns = rate of fire and damage output.
 Compare a remington to a Spas or AA12. "

Not much actual difference. The SPAS has some nice bits and peices but is functionally identical to a Remmington 870/1100, Mossberg, Ithaca, Browning 5 etc. They all fire the same ammo and do the same damage.
The AA-12 is one of the few purpose designed combat shotguns and does have the advantage of a straight-line layout and automatic mode, plus box/drum magazine loading, but whether that would be significant for Necromunda type game stats..however, such guns are by no means typical and most military shotguns are no better than those in the hands of police or civilian hunters (which is actually something of a scandal).

I think you may be better dropping "military" and "civilian" from many of these class titles and simply having them as abstract tiers. "You character now qualifies for level 3 weaponry" "great, I want a Jimmpy!"

[messyart]

I'd have explained more, but had to fly off to the Job centre.

Right, the weapon tiers are explained simply by reputation.

Initially, your survivor will find it hard getting traders to part with guns that they KNOW will be better used on more experienced, better-known people.
Second tier covers a more.. Open stance on gun sales. The kind of kit cops might own. And a few special little odds and ends that scavengers might find without too much difficulty - or even make themselves.

Third tier is the heavy shit. Guns that traders will not pass on to people unless they KNOW they're not going to getting themselves killed.

Military tier weapons are for those either in the military, or those so well-known that the traders, and any squaddies with spares WILL want to be working with them.


The tiers fit the rules. It helps break it down, to delay access to the final, deadliest tier.


Like I said, if someone read the fluff, then the rules, or either the other way around, they would understand.
It's based on what scavengers and traders would allocate to those they serve.
When we say "civilian assault rifle"
imagine a weapon that's not been so lovingly kept as a soldier might keep his own. So it could well be the same type of gun, but the neglect and hell, maybe even gore splatters might make the weapon just a bit less effective than the military version.


The single handed SMG is just a way of saying "I have this SMG, but I'm going to risk wasting my ammo to use this other gun, too..." it hits less at the same distance.
It's basically the exact same gun, except it allows you to use two of them. That's all their is to it.
And don't you think adrenaline might be pumping readily if you were being constantly hounded by the dead?

Anyway, guns and melee are simple.
If someone fires a basic gun [an SMG held in two hands] they cannot charge into combat.
If someone fires to Sidearms [say, two single handed SMGs] they cannot charge into combat.
But if someone shoots only a single Sidearm, they CAN run in and fight.



but yes, like I said.
Military/ civilian is to divide between what basic survivors can have, compared to what would be considered veterans.

[uncle phil]

I have know problem about the tier system, just that the terminology is distracting and not helping.

Having slept on this I realise that the problem is that you have chosen to use a definition of "Military" and "Civilian" that is at odds with common usage. One can understand the context if you read the fluff, but it is counter intuitive, confusing, inelegant and unnecessary.

If you want discriptors that describe the quality of the weapon, use some -"cheap SMG", "Custom rifle" etc.

From what you have just said. "Single Hand SMG" is actually "SMG fired one handed", not a separete weapon class -which would also explain the oxymorinic "two handed military pistol".

I like what you are doing here, but your choice of words needs a revision, particularly if you intend the rules to be easily used by those who do not have english as a first language.

Good luck at the job centre

[messyart]

Oh no, "Military two handed pistol" would be things like the Desert Eagle.
Large, powerful pistols.

No, I had toyed with "common" and "elite" weapons, but that description didn't fit well with the fluff.
And so the weapons were divided *simply* between the weapons initially available to the general public, from traders who have earned their own gear from what is scavenged from corpses [I can imagine in the initial outbreak, a fair group would have come across guns, either on soldiers who had passed trying to fight the dead, and some might even have held guns of their own]
and so from there on, traders would hold a distinction between "Well, I have no fucking clue who this guy is.. Do I trust him with this carbine? No."

If we add too many random categories, it'll just ruin the simplicity of "Oh, the military close combat weapons are better than civilian.. Well I'm after a Katana, I think I'd rather get the military weapon"