I won Advanced Heroquest on Ebay! AHQ vs. WHQ

[Billiam Babble]

After a tense bidding war I've procured a copy of Advanced Heroquest.  The cause of this is possibly this forum - so I'll be sending the bill ... ;)

I haven't had much of a chance to have a good look at the rules but also haven't been able to stop myself comparing it to Warhammer Quest.  Of course, there is almost no-one I know in my own social group who has ever owned both or even one of them, so I guess here is the only place I can muse over vintage games.  

Games mechanics aside (I love d12s!), AHQ is actually a much more flexible in terms of laying out dungeon plans (randomised or planned).  WHQ has larger (1 inch scale?) grid which also means less board sections can fit on the average dining table.  Suddenly I'm wanting to draw smaller grid dungeon plans and force all D&D gamers to adopt my-fits-onto-an-A4-sheet scale.  A dice based dungeon generator in AHQ looks like it creates more interesting dungeons because the card based system of Warhammer Quest  severely limits the number of exits - and the whole dungeon is basically one (chunky domino) route to the Quest Room with perhaps with one t-junction (where the card pack becomes split) - of course it may be just that AHQ corridors can actually wind around the rooms.  However for a long time in all FRP games I preferred 5ft deep walls - this stops monsters and characters even considering knocking down walls, it also makes for tidy mapping, before enough of that ...

Thumbing through the rules, AHQ also includes a character generation system, WHQ does not - presumably to make us buy the character boxes?* - although the massive rulebook (with bestiary) somewhat out-weighs AHQ in terms of being a "complete" RPG.  The number of times AHQ mentions White Dwarf is giggle-worthy - and the photos on the side and back of the box (which I think Mortis mentioned) might as well be a catalogue.  WHQ is more confident in itself, but also plugs potential supplements.  I still suspect that WHQ is just lure into army collecting and Warhammer proper.

Examples at Board Game Geeks:
Chunky WHQ board section: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/202918
AHQ photos: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/372191
(Incidentally some of the home made scenery for WHQ on Board Game Geeks is worthy of a little worship)
* For Character packs see the boxes at the bottom of this image: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/307556?size=large

Presumably, by only having skaven monsters, AHQ really was leading on from Heroquest with it's orcs, chaos warriors and skeletons (correct me on this) - unless my set is lacking a few figures?

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Nice going on getting hold a copy of AHQ! How much did it cost you in the end?

The AHQ  dungeon generator is a pretty good and very detailed system allowing for some great dungeons full of interesting encounters (a room full of giant moths is a great one). The system's downfall (I find) is, that constantly rolling on all those endless matrices (I thinks that the plural of matrix) takes a long time and can really slow down the game. However I find it works well if the GM pre-generates the dungeon before a game and then lays it out from a map in game. As you said the thin walls can be a problem with players who are new to the game (not to mention not very realistic). However by allowing players to some times find weak points in the walls from time to time when searching for secret passages  will put them off assuming the wall are normally weak enough to knock down. Over all WHQ's dungeon generating system runs faster but tends toward the linear.  

Apart from the dungeon sections the actual box content of AHQ is rather a let down, no 3D dungeon dressings and very little variety in the miniatures. I think the idea behind AHQ was for it to be sold as a what now call a 'core game' and they intended it to be a lot more heavily supported that it was (hence the constant WD plugging). The idea being that if you already own HQ (starter game) and then go out and buy AHQ you've pretty much got the Old World bestiary covered so far as your basic troops go, then you'll be encouraged to buy larger monsters and champions (This kind of game works well with a collection like mine).

For the record a complete AHQ box should contain 20 Skaven Warriors,12 Human Henchmen and our 4 Heroes: The Warrior, The Dwarf, The Elf and The Wizard. The basic dungeon AHQ set consists of  6 plastic Doors, 15 Passages, 21 T Junctions and corner pieces, 3 Dead Ends, 2 Stairs, 3 Large Rooms,6 Small Rooms and a Circular Room. By altering the Large Room/Small Room matrix a little you can add dungeon rooms from other sets to spice things up a little so far room shape and size goes. The rule book contains rules for using the HQ board as a maze section which is quite fun.

And in case anyone was wondering the basic HQ box contains 8 Orcs, 6 Goblins, 3 Fimir, 4 Chaos Warriors, 1 Chaos Warlock,1 Gargoyle, 4 Skeletons, 2 Zombies, 2 Mummies, the Barbarian, the Dwarf, the High Elf, the Wizard, 2 tables, The Throne, The Alchemists Bench, 3 Treasure Chests, The Hero's Tomb, the Sorcerer’s Table, 2 Bookcases, the Torture Rack, the Fire Place, the Weapon Rack, a Cupboard and 21 card Doors with plastic bases. As you can see both boxes together makes for a much more complete game.

[Billiam Babble]

I'm not at home at the moment to count the pieces and I think I was mainly interested in the rooms and corridors, and the rules of course, so a selection of unpainted figures was a bonus.  Heroes, a lot of henchmen and Skaven? - check. I'm not sure if I have six doors though - will check when I get back (or look closely at photo - below).  I think it's all there and playable.  (Okay, I know I sound like a bit of a dope but the chances are that whatever I play next will be a sort of hybrid game with pieces and rules stolen from here and there and I can always claim that it was -ahem- research for floorplans, honest)  

Here's the link to the set I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=200352648030
(hoping that works)
It was slightly more than I expected but after looking about a bit at the ridiculous prices AHQ and accessories go for on ebay I think I got a rather good deal.  I think the £8.50 p&p put a few people off.  In fact some bids for rules and board sections added together went for more.  Astonishing!

(Did I mention that I also acquired Warlock of Firetop Mountain boardgame - again bought for the lush map/board - although with that one I have to work out what the missing counters are - the seller claimed that he'd never played it so he wasn't sure, but at least the heroes and mazes pieces are all there.  Ebay is a very dangerous place if you're feeling nostalgic!)

I am now resisting looking for an HQ game set - for completist sake - but that's just silly because I have similar figures (and I have the D&D HQ clone boardgame), but still... However all the rules with the weapon racks and cupboards would make for interesting play along with those maze rules.  Last year I spent some time playing a downloaded HQ game - it wasn't bad, ridiculously small file size, ran on anything and felt very much like a turn based Gaunlet or Nethack.)  

Fimirs are pretty tough, aren't they?

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Billiam Babble wrote

 the chances are that whatever I play next will be a sort of hybrid game with pieces and rules stolen from here and there and I can always claim that it was -ahem- research for floorplans, honest

The games we are playing at the moment are also based on an hybrid/home-brew system my players have dubbed ‘Mortis Quest’ , it started out as HeroQuest with a few rules added for game play ability and quickly snow-balled into a whole new system.  We use a mixture of rules borrowed from AHQ, WHQ, the D&D Board game, classic D&D and a few other places all working on top the HeroQuest combat system.  I’d be interested to see what you come up with for your games ... who knows between us we could come up with a whole new system ...

The Warlock of Firetop Mountain board is nice, the figures are a rather nice example of early citadel plastics and the artwork is great, but the rules aren’t that well written ... despite providing figures for a great range of classes there is no difference between the character types (it would be nice if the wizard cast spells, the barbarian could hit harder in combat, the armoured knight was more difficult to damage, the cleric could ward off creatures ... ect), the key puzzle is too easy to cheat and feels tacked on afterwards. For the most part the game is just a race to the finish line with a few encounters added, the maze is good idea, but I feel more could have been done with the game when you consider how much more detailed the book is. Who knows maybe The Legend of Zargon Board game has a bit more depth to it ...
I’ll see if I can get you a components list for Warlock

Yea, If you can get copy of HQ cheap I’d go for it, I own like 5 copies plus a bunch of extra HQ figures most of which (apart from my first copy) I picked up at car-boot sales and charity shops ... so keep an eye out ... but anyone with a decent sized collection of fantasy miniatures will have enough to cover the HQ bestiary - except perhaps the fimir -  but you could easily substitute fimir for creatures of a similar size (lesser demons, Black Orcs, larger beastmen or mutants, lizardmen warriors, ect)

I’ll make spate post about the HQ computer games as I have recently discovered D&D Tactics on the PSP which is very similar

[Billiam Babble]

Good news, on closer inspection I think I've done rather well inventory wise for AHQ and Warlock'.  thanks for the pointers.
I can't remember the exact count of the cards for my Warlock of Firetop Mountain, but was pleased to discover that all of the essential key cards and room cards are there. The knight missing a sword - but I'm sure I can remedy that. ;)  The board is just a pleasure to behold, and because of my floor plans art I can definitely claim it as "research". ;)  Looking again at AHQ - I'm still amazed at how flexible the mapping can be.  
Ever since trying to decipher the rules for Valley of the Four Winds I've been rather forgiving of other GW games rules.

(5 copies of HQ?!!  That's one monster dungeon!. :) )

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Yea putting a few HQ boards back to back makes for a nice long crawl

I've also found that the AHQ tiles work quite well along side the D&D boardgame ones using the unique locations like the Prison block and the outside bits as Quest Rooms (the lava bridge also makes for a good Hazard Room to break up a dungeon a bit). You can also use D&D Boardgame tiles with AHQ's maze-level rules in the same way as the HQ board.

Incidently I've recently got my WD out of storage (hooray!) and I'll try and get some of AHQ adventures and extra rules scanned and posted