He...hellloooo?

[3D6]

Cobwebs hang low from the ceiling...there is a damp smell of must in the air.  It is very evident that no one has been in this room for a long...long time.

[Fenryz]

aah, 4rth Edition, the hotly disputed version of D&D...

I own the Essentials books, and some random paraphernalia, but never GM:ed it unfortunately.
I currently run a Kingmaker campaign, by Paizo - with the Warhammer 2nd ed rules - but with heavy influences of D&D 4rth ed - Healing Surges, Skill Cards, etc. We dont have that much time to play, and I dont want my players to get knocked out in the first fight and spend 1 week in bed just to get up again.

[3D6]

I recently picked up two of the four essentials books and the "Red box" just to get familiarity with the game.  I do like how the team at Wizards is attempting to get people into the game.  Yes, they have simplified a lot of the rules and it does appear to be a little more "mainstream" but, if I can get my ten year old son hooked and he can understand why things are done, then I have won half the battle.  I will always favor THAC0 and 2nd edition, but this is the next generation of D&D so I am going to give it a try.

[Marchomer]

I've read the three base 4th handbooks and I can say that this edition is not D&D. Maybe it's a good game with good mechanics (maybe), but it is not D&D, it's a new game with a wrong name.

You could try something like the original "Red Box" and continue with the other sets: Expert, Companion... or Rules Cyclopedia or some other free games like BASIC, with some extra stuff like tiles, extra skills, miniatures and (even if you like THAC0) an easier increasing AC system instead of the original decreasing AC system.

I Always played great adventures with this edition, even with newbies ("n00bs" that after playing with this system, learned to play 3,5 edition with no problem and became "skilled players")

[3D6]

It was interesting, reading through the first "solo" quest and then later the group quest that within the first dungeon the players were faced with a white dragon...a challenge no first level would ever dare take a chance in fighting...but alas...my son did...and now...his first toon has bitten the big one.

[3D6]

Marchomer, I understand what you are saying.  I felt the same way when Wiards took over TSR and published 3rd edition.  I was upset with how they changed the game.  I was upset that after so many years of playing the game one way and understanding how things were that they would change it.  I completely turned my nose up at it.  Of course with 4th edition...I find it odd that Tieflings are acceptible characters to play and Gnomes are evil.  Of course, I like Dragonborn, which I suppose is a spin off of the Draconians from the Dragonlance series.

In the end...it's all about enjoying yourself and spending time with others.  So be it 2nd, 3rd, 4th or some 3rd party spin off have fun.

[Fenryz]

I loved 3rd edition, but I was stuck with a GM that refused to learn the rules properly, and thus the fights became completely unhinged. What made it even worse was that all my complaints were drowned in the loud cries from a fellow player who thought everything was hunky dory.

2 complaints though - skills got a bit meaningless above lvl 10, and there were far too many save-or-die spells.

[Marchomer]

3D6 wrote

I felt the same way when Wiards took over TSR and published 3rd edition.  I was upset with how they changed the game.  I was upset that after so many years of playing the game one way and understanding how things were that they would change it.  I completely turned my nose up at it.

What you say is true, I was sceptic too in the first time with 3rd edition! But I read it and I must be honest with myself, it was good with a solid system.

3D6 wrote

Of course with 4th edition...I find it odd that Tieflings are acceptible characters to play and Gnomes are evil.  Of course, I like Dragonborn, which I suppose is a spin off of the Draconians from the Dragonlance series.

The background changes could be a good thing too, but what I really dislike in the 4th edition is the math. Like happened to the 3rd edition I read it before judge it. And after the reading I judge it... (bad ) Let me explain to you why, in any edition of D&D the algorithms are almost the same:
1. 1d20+bonus;
2. *d*+bonus to wound;
3. In a round you can do a certain number of actions (mainly melee or ranged attack, cast a spell, use a skill...);
 
Obviously something change, for example the initiative system always changed through the editions (AD&D 2nd edition I think is the best one), HP changed since 3rd edition, like the use of skills and the Saving Throws. But the main concepts never changed, not even the "feel".

In 4th edition a LOT of thing changed, but I'm not talking about background or new races, I'm still talking about math and I think changed for the first time in a wrong way:

1. The core algorithm of D&D changed in 1d20+½ of the PC level+bonus+bonus+bonus;
2. PCs are virtually invincible;
3. There are infinite "free actions" a PC can do during the round;
4. A combat round sounds like this (I saw a combat during a gameplay):
"I take one step, with a free action I cure wounds on myself, the player near to me because of my skill restore his HP, with another free action I restore 50% of my HP, I move near the goblin, I kill him, this thing activate my power so every man in the range of 10fts become a chicken, my PC when sees chickens falls in berserk fury, I have other 2 actions, with the first one I eat the chickens, with the second one I think I'm gonna play Yughi Oh! with my Dragon familiar"... this is not an RPG;
5. The way WOTC releases their books is a too explicit commercial operation (DM Guide 1,2,3... Player Handbook 1,2,3...);
6. A player can use base characteristic in an absurd way, for example Intelligence can improve AC (?!? Have you guys ever see a nerd invulnerable to the smacks of a football player?);
7. Hundreds of things without no logic....

That's why I always said that D&D 4th edition is maybe a good game that remind a videogame, but it's not D&D.

With this I don't want to blame or accuse the WOTC guys, a company needs money and in a world where the average teenagers (the target) wants to play with videogames, the right thing to do is to makes him happy and turn a RPG into a paper videogame and accessorize it with digital stuff (D&D insider). WOTC did the right choice.

3D6 wrote

In the end...it's all about enjoying yourself and spending time with others.  So be it 2nd, 3rd, 4th or some 3rd party spin off have fun.

Yes, totally agree! If you like it, play it! It's not important which edition or which game... The most important thing is spending time with friends and have fun!

Fenryz wrote

I loved 3rd edition, but I was stuck with a GM that refused to learn the rules properly

A GM that doesn't know the rules... he can destroy every game.

Fenryz wrote

2 complaints though - skills got a bit meaningless above lvl 10, and there were far too many save-or-die spells.

Yes, it's true, but with a good GM this is not a real problem, for example... whoops! I'm sorry! A good GM...

[Billiam Babble]

Excellent, a discussion about DnD4! :)

Glad you've posted this 3D6.

I think I'm with Marchomer on a lot of the points.  However I'm a fan on high HP for starting characters, at least they feel like heroes from the outset.  Unfortunately I find the new core rulebooks indecipherable.  I cannot even generate characters from them.  I bought a few starter modules which actually have some pregens in.  It's horribly combat focussed and the new terms confuse me more.  And then yes, PH 1, 2, 3 makes me very cynical.  Also I don't think I can forgive WOTC for retaining Attacks of Opportunity which can tie a fight order in knots.  Maybe I need to buy the Red Box in order to be able to understand this flavour of game - perhaps soon they'll try to revise core books and the cycle will continue (no wonder folk are buying Pathfinder 3.5 products)
Maybe I just need to join a group of players who already understand the new rules, because they sure as aint going in from reading the rulebooks (which incidentally are gorgeous)  

I used to play AD&D, but D&D3 made so much better sense with the core mechanic and skills.  But maybe DnD4 shouldn't be presented in books, maybe it would work better as a card deck.  Also why don't WOTC sell individual figures? Or figures of a single type?  They never got over the randomised booster packs perhaps.

I wish I understood this game better.

How much have people here played the 4th edition. Even Mortis has dabbled with the latest Ravenloft. :)
 
 (typed on phone apologies for typos)

[Billiam Babble]

I know it might seem like a step backwards but I'd be tempted to run D&D Basic-clone Basic Fantasy for a 10yr old - I'm sure it'd be pretty easy to put together a Dragonborn race (there's cool supplement on player monsters as PCs with templates). You could buy new rulebooks from Lulu and it would still feel like a new gaming experience, with lots of cheap gaming material online (plus any old stuff you have).

 Also boost the HP at first level, adding the whole Constition attribute to the hit die or maybe start at third level.  Chuck in a load of 1d6 healing potions and its pretty similar to the "healing surges" of 4th ed.

However, if you do run a 4th ed game, I'm sure we'd love to read about it here - especially the benefits of playing DnD4 over our older games and homebrew mashups. :)

[3D6]

Been a way for a while...when Halloween season kicks in...I am Halloween Man!  Anyhow...just poking my nose back in here again.  All good arguments...and interesting reads.