Dungeons of Dread – a rant about a game that doesn’t exist (yet)

[MortiS-the-Lost]

This is speculation based on patterns of behaviour, a look at what might be - you might call it a prediction, but I'd argue that you can't predict the future so much as exaggerate the present – so maybe you should think of it as that    

Ok lets say GW in the future did another limited release game – and since they've done Dread Fleet which would supposedly appeal to those who like Man-O-War and before they did SpaceHulk to appeal to people who like well … SpaceHulk – the next game would have to some how relate to a classic from GW's past (you know when they were still respectable). Warhammer Quest seems a good candidate, copies sell for huge amounts on eBay these days and all who have played it have great nostalgic memories of their times spent playing … it.

Right so SpaceHulk 3rd  2009, DreadFleet 2011, so we are perhaps talking about the not too distant future of 2013, probably around September to co-inside with Gamesday.

The game will of course be limited release and have no continuing support – so it can't be a proper 2nd edition version of Warhammer Quest because that would require on going support. It probably won't contain the same rule set and thus they can't call it Warhammer Quest.
So lets for the sake of argument call it 'Dungeons of Dread' (Hmm - Good name, maybe I should copyright it before the subject of this hypothetical rant becomes a reality!)

and also following the pattern – the price: Space Hulk £60, DreadFleet £70, which gives us a price of £80 for Dungeons of Dread

So what's in the box?

Plastic clip-together models of course!

A Hero of each race/class (Barbarian, Elf, Dwarf, Wizard and maybe a Cleric or Thief too) all extravagantly modelled with lots of dungeoneering paraphernalia (lanterns, nap sacks, ect) and ornate weapons  

Monsters, most likely some Orcs and Goblins, maybe some Chaos Warriors and Undead types too. Each modelled clinging onto a pillar, door or some other fixed dungeon feature that will look kinda strange moving along with them as they make their way toward the Heroes. Of course each mini is unique with in the set, but is clearly re-sculpted from an existing Warhammer mini, re-posed to be more 'dynamic' ect – since Skaven have quite a few interesting troop types and creatures in their armies and they live underground there is a strong possibility all the monsters will be a Skaven Hoard  

1 or 2 Big monsters, maybe a nice Plastic Troll (vastly better than the shitty Skull Pass one) and Demon Prince Chaos players will want to use in their armies (que some horrible Chaos Spacemarine Demon conversions) or maybe a Lich Lord or Dragon or something – if the Skaven Hoard possibility is played out the big monster may be a giant mutant rat-ogre or similar and the Boss will be a Grey Seer or Warlord (maybe Thanquol – in which case the big monster would be Bone Ripper and the game might be called Thanquol's Doom and vaguely follow the plot of the book)

note that at least some of the monsters will probably bare a strong resemblance to models made by other companies (probably Mantic, WotC or Privateer Press)

Doors, probably fixed and not designed to open, but they are still nicely detailed with brick work around the edges, skulls on the base and things nailed to the doors themselves

Furniture, a throne (probably with a skeleton attached sitting on it), Book cases (again detailed with skulls and dynamically posed rats all over it), a desk (strewn with papers and skulls and quills), probably a tomb too (modelled to be partly cracked open, more dynamic rats, skulls ect), Torture Rack (with Dwarf prisoner modelled on)  and probably an Altar or Chaos Shrine too – no tables though, far too boring - all of the furniture items would be the objectives for one Quest or another

Then of course floor plans – art work maybe – or maybe photo-shopp'd together pictures of bits of miniatures like the Space Hulk 3rd ones – extra thick card of course, embossed details ect


Right rules! Well as mentioned before they won't be Warhammer Quest rules – also it's likely the game will be based around 2 players (one being the Heroes, the other the monsters) and not like a traditional Dungeon Crawler where each player has a character and they all take on the Dungeon Master (not competitive enough for the likes of GW game designers these days). A points based action system might be tempting but they don't want it to be too much like Mantic's Dwarf King's Hold (or do they?)

There will a book of hmm lets say 12 quests each involving one of the pieces of  furniture as mentioned above and will follow a set campaign story – the last quest being a ridiculous boss fight with the demon prince model which you probably don't get to use in the other scenarios.

The story will of course ignore and contradict various long established parts of the Warhammer back ground in an attempt to justify each scenario


 - all in all it wouldn't be a bad game, some people will complain about the rules, most will think the miniatures are the best thing ever, but ultimately at lot of people will be put off by the price tag  and those who aren’t will buy multiple copies to sell on eBay to those who must have it and will pay anything for a game GW could have done a lot better with long term if they'd not made it a limited release, supported it and given it a more reasonable price.

In part I write this in the hope that it will never happen

[MortiS-the-Lost]

The point of this is, I would love to see this game become real, it's a game I'd really like to play and own - however as much as I'd like it and as well produced as it might be, it would be vastly over priced

[Billiam Babble]

*Grin* I kind of want the game you're talking about -we all do. ;)  And we'd pay double!

I can see what your saying about their approach and tired rehashing whilst not supporting a line that they claimed was the "ultimate gaming experience", but I just can't see them returning to WHQ or anything remotely similar.  My own reasons for feeling this is that even when WHQ came out, it was just after they had thrown all of the RPGs out of the stores, including Warhammer FRPG.  Even as a D&D/HQ-type game there was a message in that game to role-playing dungeon-delvers that plots could be randomised and that the traditional dungeon games were no longer needed, even the GM could be dropped.   But unfortunately for WHQ fans, at the end of the day it wasn't focussed on collecting armies (*speculation*).  The Moria settings for LotR would have been a perfect return to the dungeon grid, but they stuck with open skirmish rules.  In 25mm game the settings/scenarios and characters are fixed, no creativity allowed (not like MERP et al), apart from in the painting of the figures perhaps (that's my interpretation, mind).  I'm actually surprised they've kept the LotR games going, the rules are different from the standard WH/GW fare and the figures are less caricatured - it's all very un-GW - not to mention strangely serious, the Waah! GW orcs have no place in Saruman's White Hands (or whatever they're called), my glorious Uruk-Hai.  I strikes me (from the magazine rules I have) that the LotR games are a perfect gateway game for new players, that as well as the movie franchise is still ongoing.  Otherwise I think it would have been dropped much faster than Gothic or Epic were.

The repeated reprints of WH FRPG and the card-based version by Fantasy Flight Games, didn't inspire them to move away from the mass battle war-gaming.  Even Inquisitor seems to sit uncomfortably with the staff I talked to a few years ago.  I have no idea what they feel about Rogue Trader et al.  Looking at Necromunda and Mordeheim, it seems unlikely that they'd want to go back to four dungeon heroes, when they can sell tribes and gangs or squads in packs of 6-10.

I think that WHQ steered too close to D&D and there used to be a real snobbery amongst the GW wargamers that RPG games were too intricate and "beardy" to quote a WH40K and Skaven collecting friend (I say "used to be" - this feels like a generation ago).  Naturally if you play both you'll know that actually old-school role-players can be very relaxed about how rules are used, and that rules-lawyering is common in all gaming, but I digress ...  

Commission driven staff have short memories.  Space Hulk came back.  Even Blood Bowl!  But like I said, it's about squads and teams.  I'm guessing Blood Bowl fitted in with the idea of regular store based tournaments.(?)

The strangest thing is that D&D is now looking more like WHQ than ever before (with all of the character special abilities and combat moves).  There's a lot of focus upon how many squares a character can move, and very little focus on non-combat skills. Not much role-playing in the inn beforehand I reckon.  
I've never played the Descent game either - and there's lots of expansion packs for that.  I mention it because it seemed to be really popular a few years back.  I'm getting more and more curious about Castle Ravenloft and the other D&D "board" games (in the hope that they are more "pick-up and play" than the RPG rules).  Surely GW is aware of the successes of those games?

Somehow GW seems to veer away from complete games in a box - apart from the absolute basics (beginner sets), because it's about the metal, and the fine-cast and the double priced acrylics.  But we know all this.  However, Space Hulk was a complete game - but note that it was "limited edition" - and I don't think that's just because it's a gamble to invest in a new game so you have a limited print run - they knew it would be a success, it's because for over 20 years at the heart of every GW manager is the pressure to pile on the extras, to encourage the buyer to diversify, new troops, new codex.  Space Hulk was a bone thrown to the nostalgia heads, and a perhaps a marketing promo to perpetuate the bizarre concept of sword wielding spacemen (okay, I'm getting cynical here).

If they made a dungeon game my gut feeling is that it would a gang-based skirmish game like Necromunda or Mordheim - or if it returned to a grid, maybe it would be team based, seize the flag/hill but with a extra scenery perhaps, and not a co-operative quest, or adventure plot, of any kind.



What a strange discussion we're having with ourselves.  It's not quite enough to criticise GW for their hideous monopoly in the UK and nakedly exploitative concepts, that we have to invent and torture ourselves with hypothetical possibilities.  

 Thanks for prodding the grey matter, Mortis.

[MortiS-the-Lost]

Billiam Babble wrote

*Grin* I kind of want the game you're talking about -we all do. ;)  And we'd pay double!

I'd consider £80 near enough to paying double the actual value to start with – no game is worth £80 no matter how good it is

Billiam Babble wrote

even when WHQ came out, it was just after they had thrown all of the RPGs out of the stores, including Warhammer FRPG.  Even as a D&D/HQ-type game there was a message in that game to role-playing dungeon-delvers that plots could be randomised and that the traditional dungeon games were no longer needed, even the GM could be dropped.

As I said in the initial rant 'Dungeons of Dread' would most likely be a 2 player game – Heroes Vs Monsters (like Space Hulk). There would be no real GM and all the quests would be fixed battle scenarios -   randomisation would be left out because it allows for extra play and thus a need for expansions (a limited release is 'self contained' meaning GW will not bother to support it after it's sold out )  

Billiam Babble wrote

In 25mm game the settings/scenarios and characters are fixed, no creativity allowed (not like MERP et al), apart from in the painting of the figures perhaps (that's my interpretation, mind).  I'm actually surprised they've kept the LotR games going, the rules are different from the standard WH/GW fare and the figures are less caricatured - it's all very un-GW - not to mention strangely serious, the Waah! GW orcs have no place in Saruman's White Hands (or whatever they're called), my glorious Uruk-Hai.  I strikes me (from the magazine rules I have) that the LotR games are a perfect gateway game for new players, that as well as the movie franchise is still ongoing.  Otherwise I think it would have been dropped much faster than Gothic or Epic were.

Concerning GW's LotR games – well it's possible they will be dropped soon, since interest in the movies has disappeared among the easily lead masses, LotR minis sales have dropped and GW making fewer and fewer LotR products – soon it will be lost to GW's past.

The reason LotR is so un-Warhammery is that it was part of the design brief to be so. Part of Newline's licence agreement with GW was that the game rules and figures should not be compatible with any existing GW game and of course GW agreed – being able to use Gandalf or a Balrog in a game of Warhammer would be an IP nightmare which might result in GW being sued (something GW fears above all else) and thus a Non-Warhammer rule system was devised and the miniatures were sculpted in 25mm scale with 'realistic' proportions

There is no talk of GW getting a licence to produce miniatures for The Hobbit movie(s!) and hardly anyone plays LotR anymore (GW's last LotR game/attempt to boost sales - War of The Ring was a complete flop) – so it looks like LotR will be dropped as soon as the licence expires and never talked of again by GW

Billiam Babble wrote

I think that WHQ steered too close to D&D and there used to be a real snobbery amongst the GW wargamers that RPG games were too intricate and "beardy" to quote a WH40K and Skaven collecting friend (I say "used to be" - this feels like a generation ago).  Naturally if you play both you'll know that actually old-school role-players can be very relaxed about how rules are used, and that rules-lawyering is common in all gaming, but I digress ...  

Most table top gamers these days (by which I mean ignorant GW gamers) have lost sight of Warhammer and 40k's roots in RPGs – many can't fathom the concept of playing as an individual Hero against a hoard of monsters. Attempts to explain dungeon crawlers and RPGs to some players I've met at THW have been met with reposes like “that's really un-balanced! Don't the Heroes get to lead a unit?”, “Is it a Skirmish game like Necromunda?”, “I didn't know there were Orks in Space Hulk” and (my favourite – said by a passer-by looking at a game we we're playing at THW once) “Wow – you've beaten all their gangs down to just 4 guys!”
Other's have shown interested but become really stumped when they started playing – I remember 2 very distinct instances with players who didn't get the concept that the dungeon was laid out as the Heroes explored – one after we'd just put down the starting tile for CaStLe RaVenLofT and put the Heroes on the stairs exclaimed “1 room? That's an easy dungeon!” and another after we'd taken apart a dungeon from a previous game to start the new one he was joining started randomly putting together rooms and corridors and said “Isn't it nice to have some else set up the terrain? - saves you the work”
of course you always get the “Why do we all have 1 guy each and you get all those Orcs and Goblins and the Dragon?”, it's close relatives “Can I be the Orcs?” and “Why can't I be a Dragon?”
other common catch phrases for those unfamiliar with RPGs and Dungeon Crawlers include “How do you win?” and “Can I shoot the Dwarf?”

wow I've really strayed off topic now ….

Billiam Babble wrote

Commission driven staff have short memories.  Space Hulk came back.  Even Blood Bowl!  But like I said, it's about squads and teams.  I'm guessing Blood Bowl fitted in with the idea of regular store based tournaments.(?)

Space Hulk never really came back – they'd don't support it, it was just a limited release only cash in (as would Dungeons of Dread be).
Blood Bowl is what they term a 'Specialist Game' which means they pretend to support it, but don't really – the miniatures are considered 'Specialist' which means they cost even more than the normal GW prices again and when you enquire about the game in a GW store the staff will tell you not to bother because “no one plays it” and tells you 40k is much better because it has Spaze Marinez.

Billiam Babble wrote

I've never played the Descent game either - and there's lots of expansion packs for that.  I mention it because it seemed to be really popular a few years back.  I'm getting more and more curious about Castle Ravenloft and the other D&D "board" games (in the hope that they are more "pick-up and play" than the RPG rules).  Surely GW is aware of the successes of those games?

GW are most likely aware of such games, but would prefer if their customers weren’t – GW consider themselves to have no competition and think they can sell and charge whatever they see fit, because people have nowhere else to go.
If they attract too many broader minded gamers like me and you, they risk us talking to the devout fans and telling them about cheaper, better and more interesting games. However it's interesting to note that a lot GW fans won't listen anyway and will dismiss anything non-GW out of hand as being crap and/or take any criticism of a GW product as a personal attack. (I was once told D&D was "just a poor copy of Warhammer" by one such person)

Billiam Babble wrote

Somehow GW seems to veer away from complete games in a box - apart from the absolute basics (beginner sets), because it's about the metal, and the fine-cast and the double priced acrylics.  But we know all this.  However, Space Hulk was a complete game - but note that it was "limited edition" - and I don't think that's just because it's a gamble to invest in a new game so you have a limited print run - they knew it would be a success, it's because for over 20 years at the heart of every GW manager is the pressure to pile on the extras, to encourage the buyer to diversify, new troops, new codex.  Space Hulk was a bone thrown to the nostalgia heads, and a perhaps a marketing promo to perpetuate the bizarre concept of sword wielding spacemen (okay, I'm getting cynical here).

Like wise Dungeons of Dread would of course be a limited release and 'self-contained' game that GW would put on the shelves, hype to buggery, sell out and then never talk of again. Another bone thrown to the older games to try and fool us into thinking they do listen and care – and as something the younger games can say “yea but they did this” when we are trying to explain how thing used to be a lot better.

Billiam Babble wrote

What a strange discussion we're having with ourselves.  It's not quite enough to criticise GW for their hideous monopoly in the UK and nakedly exploitative concepts, that we have to invent and torture ourselves with hypothetical possibilities.  

 Thanks for prodding the grey matter, Mortis.

I felt a  hypothetical game might be a better way to point how GW works and what they are doing to the hobby as people wouldn't just see it as me trying to give 'bad press' to DreadFleet or SpaceHulk 3rd (2 games with which they've already done exactly what I'm describing with – think of this as a kind of satire)

anyway it – this is great, we havn't had a good long rant like this together for a while

[Marchomer]

An extract of the chat I had with Mortis today on facebook, it summarize everything.

Me:
I've read your rant about "Dungeons of Dread"
I'm agree with you... but there's an error
GW guys never use the word "dungeon" in their products!
 
Mortis:
well not recently I guess
didn't think of that
Catacombs of Dread?
Tunnels of Dread?
that's a whole other side to the rant
 
Me:
Prices of Dread?

Mortis:
all their products should be called that
lol

Me:
lol :D

[radwell]

very interesting topic,  

Marchomer wrote

Me:
Prices of Dread?

Mortis:
all their products should be called that
lol

Me:
lol :D

 and this made me giggle.

[Billiam Babble]

Those quotes from players and passers-by were making me curl up inside.     I'm such an isolationist these days, I'm rarely actually exposed realities which I sort of suspect.  

Thanks for explaining the "specialist" games stuff , makes more sense of the big picture for me.  Now I think I remember a while back you explaining why LotR was deliberately un-warhammery in rules and aesthetics - tis a legal thing!

It's still so strange, considering Games Workshop's roots in the 70s when they were open to all products (strategy boardgames, RPGs, table-top war-gaming) and then marginalising to one arm of the hobby. At least they never went too far into collectable card packs - but no, they didn't need too, I mean imagine if the pictures on the cards were molded in 3D metal or plastic and that a few cards could cost a mere £15 ... no, wait. ;)

I'm also curious to read how many folk in the US have FLG store (is that right? "Friendly local game" store? I often get the abbreviation wrong)  which might sell everything from comics, toys, t-shirts and games.  GW was that for us in the UK and then they changed.  Virgin Megastore used to stock a handful of imported games, but it was meagre.  In "good" bookshops you will see the odd rulebook in amongst the manga, but rarely a full range of anything.  I know in some cities, sometimes there's a Forbidden Planet/Another World -"collectables" shops, but they would rarely hold games or contests (or am I wrong?).  Locally, my town had a new independent shop open and close in just under a year, but even then it was tabletop wargames only, but thankfully gave me a chance to see some Flames of War models, Hordes and  Warmachine, but RPGs or even a dungeon crawler (or a D&D boardgame) seemed a little too beneath radar for them.  The funny thing was that this shop was just around the corner from GW and sold GW products.  The GW staff would even go in and play games, which was nice to see (despite my belief that they are ex-gamers tortured to do the devil's will and trained in Dixons).   I'm pretty sure there was at least some symbiosis there - or at least an overlapping of customers.  (Cue: "Popular People's Front of Judea" sketch)

So from my RPG-gaming biassed perspective, I say that GW effectively killed off role-playing in the UK (or drove it underground).  
Ah, bless GW.  They giveth and they taketh.  Bless the customers who giveth and well... they get something for a bit, right? (before they change the rules, army lists or stop a product line)   But again, I think I've gone off the point here.  

Mortis's Dungeons of Dread is an effective bringing together of the combination of exploitation, excitement and let downs that a single special product from Games Workshop can have.   

One day I will learn to love you again, my darling Games Workshop.
But not today or tomorrow.