Advanced Heroquest - is the best?!

[TheConvenientSkill]

I have this long held belief that AHQ is the best of the GW dungeon delvers. This really comes from the actual game mechanics, rather than any of the other added on stuff (which I admit WQ does really well).

D12 is just so much better than D6, AHQ really was WRFP without D%, Careers and Fellowship (easily added back in to create a real RPG experience).

One of the things I've been dabbling with is adding in the better elements from WQ to AHQ to create the true dungeon delver that is nearly there in both games.

From my experience these are the settlement and travel events (although modified to remove the complete random nature of resolution), and the card based 'rooms'.

The events are easily added and amended (maybe some day I'll post my work in progress, but they are currently on paper (how 20th Century!)).

The rooms thing I've been thinking lately could be handled thus:

Corridors are generated per the AHQ rules.
Whenever a room is discovered a card is drawn.
This dictates which room is placed behind the door.
If there are additional doors beyond this room some of the cards are placed beyond these doors (exactly like splitting the pack at a T junction in WQ).

This eleviates the problem that characters won't go into rooms because eventually they will always discover the way down/objective room.

I'm currently thinking normal playing cards referenced to a sheet (this avoids the problem of knowing which type of room is next by the quality of the card).

Any comments/critiques.

BTW these are completely untested, maybe one day I'll get 'round to it!

[Billiam Babble]

Interesting observations.  Cool ideas.

When I play WHQ now, I love adding rules for extra doors and split the deck repeatedly, but you also have the option to backtrack and so the quest room isn't the final room.  It can make for pretty fast soloplay.

I bought AHQ recently, and I'm fairly impressed at how flexible the dungeon layouts can be, but WQ is just gorgeous to look at.

 There's a lot to be said for *not* limiting the game with cards - not to mention that rolling dice on a random dungeon generator can be lots of fun and very easy to adapt at short notice.  But I still like the idea of splitting the deck and knowing that the quest room is in the second half of the pile.

The WHQ rulebook is huge, but somehow AHQ seems more malleable - more pencil stats and hands-on mapping, also the henchmen are great idea (the original disposable redshirts of D&D!).
 
I'd flesh out the equipment lists.  Both games need a way of shopping / restocking whilst within the dungeon - so I'm probably throw in a sort of magical pedlar/"goblin market" card.  

Also, both games need more recharge zones / healing points / spell top-ups - for those utterly massive rolling megadungeons (I'd probably ditch the between-dungeon events - although forest "dungeons" would not be so hard to create - I made plenty of notes a while back, not to mention simple floor plans).

Both games need more passive-NPC encounters who grant favours, curses, subquests (I used to think this was part of a GW conspiracy to remove narrative or role-play from all gaming, all roads lead to the tabletop fight! ...)  )

[TheConvenientSkill]

I've been fiddling with the card pack idea and while it worked great for keying to the room types very easily trying to split the pack was a complete nightmare! AHQ has so many effective T junctions it was almost impossible.

I'm still trying to think my way around this at the moment, including amending the dungeon generation tables (I think they work a little better now for speedier play).

Anyway no time now, I'll have to come back and explain better tomorrow.

[Billiam Babble]

The permutations of those AHQ tables can be quite complex - and as random dungeon generators go it's fairly simplistic.*

Mortis has posted up a fair few random dungeon generators, not to mention, the odd ingenious flash program written by other members (insert links here ...)
 
At least with tables you can have a cumulative turn modifiers - I was  reminded of this a while back whilst playing Chronicles of Arax (blog post), because you added the number of turns or "go"s to the roll which took you to the next numbered location.  

In AHQ and WQ this means that the objective/quest rooms would be at the bottom of the table - with a guaranteed number of  turns before reaching them.  I.e. on a table where a d20 is rolled the quest rooms might be Entries 25, 26, 27, 28 (requiring a minimum of 5 turns or 5 locations to have already been used on a natural roll of 20)  Did I imagine that AHQ had a system like this? (I don't my rules to hand)

I'm trying to remember by my extremely small but significant modification to WQ was the "extra entrance" roll of "none" to two extra exits from a room. Ignore this if it's a dead end - i.e. there's no cards left on that branch of the dungeon.

(It was something like ...)
After entering a room/chamber (not corridor) roll 1d6
1-3 = no extra exits,
4-5 = 1 extra exit,
6 = 2 extra exits (rare)

T-junctions had special rules too.  Something like:  
d6
1-4 no change,
5-6 an archway is added with 2x2 corridor  making it an X-junction.

This did however mean that you can finish a dungeon in about three rooms if you're lucky (from a divided 12(?) card deck).  Feels like manic roulette of a game!  Made for great looking dungeons too.

 To non-players of WQ this must all look very tame*, but the effect on the controlled probability and determinism in Warhammer Quest the game was mental!

(*AD&D (1st ed) random dungeon tables, anyone?)

[TheConvenientSkill]

I like the simplistic nature of the generation tables, it makes it easier to mod, plus it ties in with the simplistic design of the tiles. Plus with random generation you can play solo, whereas a generated layout holds no secrets.

AHQ's rules per the standard game are 11-12 Quest room on any room roll. Lichemaster complicated this by introducing staged generation tables, 0-2 rooms explored No Quest room possible, 3-5 12, 6-7 9+, 8 or more rooms 8+.

Here's the probabilities of rolling the Quest room in the Standard (St) game and the Lichemaster (LM) (according to me):

Room St LM
1st 17% 0%
2nd 31% 0%
3rd 42% 0%
4th 52% 8%
5th 60% 16%
6th 67% 23%
7th 72% 49%
8th 77% 66%
9th 81% 80%
10th 84% 88%
11th 87% 93%

So the Lichemaster takes longer on average, but doesn't tend to drag out.

Regarding Chronicles of Arax, I've tinkered with a couple of methods like that, from an almost exact copy to moving up when a room roll has already been explored.

For a very easy example:

1-6 Normal
8-9 Hazard
10-12 Lair
13 Quest

So if I rolled, 9,10,9. The second 9 rolled would move up to 11, 9 and 10 having already been used. Having the Quest room as 13 means that you can't enter the Quest room on the first roll, generally this takes about 9-10 rolls to find the quest room but it is very easy to tweak the table to make the quest harder or easier. Using this system it is more likely that you will hit the higher numbers especially as you are required to have hit a 12 before, therefore a symmetrical layout is generally better.

However this still doesn't stop you finding the Quest room eventually, no matter what.

I think the answer still lies in cards, I'll post my thoughts in a bit.

Really I am trying to answer some criticisms I've read regarding the game, namely:

You do not have to enter/explore a room because you will get to the Quest room eventually.
Fighting around doors.

The fighting around doors thing is very easy to resolve without any complicated rules whatsoever, if you defeat a monster and leave a vacant death zone either the victorious character, on first dibs, or a 'free' opponent may immediately step into the space. This effectively locks the defending character in place, and if they close the door, any monster may open it back it up.

[TheConvenientSkill]

My card method is a little complicated. Using a standard pack of cards 2 to 7 are 'Normal' (I count red as 'Furnished' with Heroquest or my other furniture, depending on the card), 8 to 10 Hazard (again with a specific card for each hazard, or my own), the picture cards as Lairs (I still roll these). I like to mix the room sizes up too depending on the card. This leaves the Aces as quest rooms, with the Jokers as 'Specials'.

Special rooms can be just about anything, a derelict chapel, a room dedicated to a magic item, an armoury etc. generally I make them player beneficial, but could just as easily be a dragon.

OK I remove the Aces and shuffle the pack, I take the top 12 cards and then take off the top 4 of those. I then shuffle in one Ace to those 8 cards before the four go back on top, giving me a hand of 13 cards (sound familiar WQ fans?). Now the other three Aces are shuffled into the remaining pack which is put to one side.

Using my edited dungeon generation table, everytime I place a door (increased chances) I put a card behind it face down. When that door is opened the card is revealed and the relevant room and contents placed, including cards for any new doors. When I am down to 3 cards I take another 3 cards from the remaining deck and shuffle them in.

It seems to work OK, and forces you to explore the dungeon in case the card just placed is the quest room (as I said I make doors more common too) the only downside is that they can be absolutely lethal, 6 face cards in 13, or a walk in the park. Funnily enough the averages aren't too disimilar to other methods because of the similarity of 13 cards and the D12.

My amended exploration tables are (I abandoned 2D12 rolls):
1-4 1 section
5-8 2 sections
9-12 3 sections

1-2 T junction
3-5 Right turn
6-8 Left turn
9-10 Dead end
11 Stairs up
12 Stairs down

1-4 Nothing
5-9 1 Door
10-11 2 Doors
12 Wandering monsters (and roll again)

Room doors
1-4 None
5-8 1 Door
9-12 2 Doors
1-5 Passage 6-12 Room
(if it's a Passage I scoop up the card and put it at the bottom of the hand)

[Marchomer]

Billiam Babble wrote

AD&D (1st ed) random dungeon tables, anyone?

Do you mean this one?

[TheConvenientSkill]

I have those ones, ah the memories (mostly of me looking through them, they were my Dad's books).

I especially like the venereal diseases section.

In a wave of nostalgia, I might just go look through them again tonight.

[Billiam Babble]

Wow.  This is a complete dungeon building engine.  

Screw AHQ and WQ  - make a deck on get on gamecrafter and launch it as a system-less random dungeon generator.

Still trying to get my head around some of the probabilities, but it looks very solid.

[Billiam Babble]

Marchomer wrote

Billiam Babble wrote

AD&D (1st ed) random dungeon tables, anyone?

Do you mean this one?

Cool there's a copy on the web.  Nice find.
  Check out those diagonal corridors!

[Billiam Babble]

TheConvenientSkill wrote

I have those ones, ah the memories (mostly of me looking through them, they were my Dad's books).

I hate you.
*feels old*

[TheConvenientSkill]

I'm not that young! The same age as D&D or thereaboouts (or A New Hope).

EDIT: BTW thanks to the link to the cards, makes me think about those card game ideas I have....